I have been an observer of self reliance and permaculture projects from the early days, always trying my best to have something working myself. My vision of a self sufficient property included a sustainable set of economics so it could run forever. With available manpower meeting almost all the needs of the household. But as I now have been attending PC properties and turning up to events I see an image that is different, it seems as if the only 'successful' pc properties rely on woofers, volunteers or interns and that just does not look sustainable in the long run. I am aware I am a product of the old world of wages, workforce employer and staff and to see organisations needing assistance at costs much less than the old world economy can work with seems odd. Its almost as if 'slave' labour is being used. Yes I know labour, board and knowledge is being swapped and shared but can those who are the woofers, volunteers or volunteers ever step up to ownership in a future, or be able to live also in the old world if they have no cash etc.. I am not trying to make a philosophical stand against the practise, I just want to hear how other people see it?