Running on DC power

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by frosty, Aug 18, 2005.

  1. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Hey there Frosty,

    We recenty had John Morgan out to have a look at our system and he recommended that we remove the diodes from the panels - they were installed according to the saftey regulations of the time, however those regulations have since changed. The diodes are prone to burning out - which two of ours had. Once we removed them the capability of the system improved as a pair of panels were not operating at all!

    How old is your system? Do you know if you have these diodes? Perhaps you could look into this with your system?

    Good luck.

    Cheers,
    Fran.
     
  2. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Hi Frosty,

    I've been talking to hubby about your setup and am interested in having some of these devices installed once our mortgage gets under the critical mark as we'd need to refinance.

    My question to you and Christopher especially, but anyone who wishes to provide me with any info on the subject is HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO BUY AND INSTALL THESE ALTERNATIVE POWER DEVICES, AND HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO ALTER YOUR EXISTING SETUP?

    Thanks,
    Tam
     
  3. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    I can give you US prices, so maybe you can do the calculations to your exchange.

    My four 75-watt panels, inverter, controller, wiring, poles and ground frame to hold the panels were $4,000 on sale. They are not on the roof because they need to be cleaned regularly for most efficiency. The frames get adjusted during the year as the sun rises and lowers near the horizon. These all last probably more than 20 years, assuming they don't get damaged.

    Ideally the panels should track the sun, but they say the trackers break easily, so they are not necessary. But you can put a swivel on the frame that holds the panels, and when you walk past, just push them towards the sun. But don't forget in the morning to push them back into the rising sun. If this seems like a nuisance, then facing them in a middle position works too.

    Glass mat batteries, which are the best way to go, and I have four, twelve-volt batteries at about $150-$200 each.

    Figure on paying someone to at least help you install it so you learn it correctly, and get the initial charge correctly on the batteries so they will last a long time.

    I put in a 4 x 6 foot shed, heavy floor to keep it mouse-proof, with big air vents on sides and roof, and a $20 wind tubine for circulation.

    I don't use the indoor AC outlets for the solar. That would take special switches and a new electrical panel, and if anyone plugs in too much stuff, then you could use it up at too high a rate and be left with nothing. And you never want to take your batteries all the way down, unless it's a real emergency.

    But I have two outlets that come from wiring in proper fireproof pipes from the shed into two main rooms where I plug in lights and computers only to the solar. The outlet plates are a different color, just to remind everyone.

    You have to count every watt that is plugged in and keep track so you know what's being used. Glass mat batteries are sealed, so there's no checking, no leaking, they are much, much safer and easier to use.

    Also, this system is not big enough for a refrigerator or an electric heater, only small lights, computers, kitchen appliances for short times.
     
  4. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Hi Tam and sweetpea

    firstly by what yu say sweetpea it seems solar stuff is cheaper is the US

    Tam check out https://www.rpc.com.au there is a catalogue and price list on the site plus a lo of info

    their panels though are not particularly cheap and can be bought cheaper even over here

    for example last time I priced new 75w panels they were $550 each at Solar Sales here

    as a guide they used to say inverters are about a dollar a watt ...... now there are some cheaper ones but be careful ........ and some of the better ones are more expensive

    a lot of our stuff is second hand ........ we scan the local free add paper every week

    we have home made stands that sit on the ground ......... they were made by hubby .......... one is an old metal bed set up on an angle with foldin "legs" at the back ........ theangle is easily changed from winter to summer but not during the day ....... they just face north

    maybe I can get hubby to take a photo later

    we ran 12 v wiring to our 12v lights........ it is quite easy for anyone than it handy ( like my hubby ) and it is legal to run DC power for yourself

    if you run a lot of stuff through an inverter it is not very efficient because inverteres use power themselves

    mmmmmm I am sure I havent covered everything - best to ask questions tam

    will try and get some photos but today is very stormy so may notget them until the weather improves ( and hoping my photobusket account hasnt expired :? I keep fogetting you have to log in once a month now to keep it active :oops: )

    regards
    frosty
     
  5. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi Tam,

    I thin fromwhat I am hearing, solar is more expensive in Australia than in the US. Solar is expensive here in Belize, unless you buy it from me :lol: as I am a dealer for two different companies. I sell equipment for list price, and make a small percentage on the sale. I also charge to install, about USD75 per day, plus expenses.

    I only do the 12vdc up to the inverter, and pass the AC stuff to a licensed electrician.

    Frosty is correct, invgerters burn power allday when on, wether or not they are being used, if they are not switched off. When they are being used, they are only about %90 efficient, at best.

    I only install small systems, never more than 600 watts (which is a big system by MY standards), and all of them have been 12 vdc. I think I psted in this same thread a stiry of a huge system, every bell and whistel, that wouldn't run a light bulb, because the inverter failed. It is a great idea to have some circuits on wwhatever voltage your battery is.

    My system would cost about USD7-8000 at list price, but, as I mentioned earlier in thisr thread, I am an enthusiastic opportunistic scavenger, and all of my panels were bought second hand, from boozers on their way out, a resort that got slammed by a hurricane, etc, etc.

    The heart of my system is a powercenter built around an Outback PSDC, w/a Statpower/Xantrex inverter, and 4 Trojan L16s. The L16s were USD150 or so (bought through a dealer here in Belize), and the Powercenter and other liscellaneous stuff I got for wholesale from one of the companies I deal with.

    However, it started out with ONE panel, ONE 12 vdc battery, two small 12 vdc lights (flouro), and a small 12 vdc fan. No inverter! Solar is modular. Add a panel, add another panel, build a bigger battery bank, install more lights, get a washing machine, get a laptop, get another couple of panels... It grew, components were added, more were added, some more were replaced as they were sold, replaced, rebuilt, some of those were sold and replaced, and now we have a system with 6 75 watt panels on the roof for 450 watt nominal, but we really get about 350 watts at the highest according to the charge controller. I designed the system so that eventually we can have up to 900 watts of solar, nominal...

    Anyway, before you go into solar, you would need to think solar, which means get rid of all the no flouro lights, any electric heat, including hairdryers, electric hot plates, electric ovens, electric heaters, regular filament bulbs, etc...... The cheapest way to "go solar" is to reduce your consumption so that you need a smaller system.

    Then, you may have some choices. If you have the mains, then you can either
    * hook up through a special inverter to the grid and use the grid as a battery. This allows your meter to roll backwards when you are out, or not using power, and then when you draw power from the system beyond what you produced, you pay for that power. The downside is that IF the grid/mains fails, you have no electricity.
    * have a complete stand alone system, which is what most people who go into solar do. I got into solar because I missed electricity :lol: and the only way to get power is to make it ourselves. The line coming in three kilometers would have cost USD40,000. Not a hard choice when our first solar system cost us USD500. You can have that as a paralllell system with the grid, like Frosty. This means you can use as much power as you need, and have a substantial reserve when the grid goes down. Or, you can use solar, and when the batteries go down a bit, use the grid.

    So you can either integrate your system, with a battery bank and a switch to go between solar and grid, hook a system up to the grid and use the grid as a battery, or make a stand alone system with seperate lights and other loads.

    The cheapest way to go solar is the grid intertied, but it would suck to have a wonderful solar system that doesn't work when the grid is down...

    I can't tell you how much it will cost, and in the short to medium term, it will not make "economic sense". However, in the medium to long term, it will make good economic sense, especially as fuel prices rise as we approach the end of oil.

    This should give you something to think about, and it may raise questions. If so ask and I will do my best to answer! But my advice is lookinto https://www.homepower.com

    Best,

    Christopher
     
  6. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Thanks for all of that info Sweetpea and Frosty. I will have to do a bit of reading up before I can make sense of a lot of the terminology, like 'inverters'. :?

    Just as well you mentioned about your photo basket Frosty. I wasn't aware that they would expire if not logged into. I'd better be more diligent about that in future.

    Any system I'd install would be to merely supplement the mains power we are currently on. Over the next few years, as we get the money, we'll gradually modify our household appliances to ones compatible with a solar powered system, but in the meantime, things like a woodstove and installation of, are somewhere near the end of a very looooong list. I'm also not too keen to give up many of my mod cons but consider if we at least supplement our power usage, it would be a start.

    I was wondering how much power the fridge would use. We've got 2 running at present, including the old kelvinator beer fridge in the garage and plan to get a freezer for our bulk meat but am concerned about the usage. Our hot water service is on it's way out so that could possibly be a starting point.

    If looking at a hot water service, what options are available there?

    Tam

    Edited to add: Sorry I didn't see your reply Christopher. We must've been typing at the same time. :lol: Thank you for your info too. Lots of info all up which I'll need to read through a few times as I'm a real novice.
     
  7. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Hi Tam and Christopher

    Tam for HWS the best option is a solar ideally connected to that wood stove you havent got yet as a booster

    have you considered a second hand wood stove ? We have a old Everhot slow combustion stove and althought the newest ones are now at least 40 years old they still seem to work just fine

    over here they are fairly common for about $500 ........ some people ask more but they dont sell

    the eew ones are worth $5000 upwards and dont seem to be much different just flasher looking

    I know it is well down your list but if you wait too long second hand ones may not be available

    BTW we also have a second hand solar HWS .......

    we bought it in 1998 for $300 to put on a bus we had then ........ but not long afterwards we found we had to move due to a veggie farm being put in next door .... we lost a lot of money having to sell fast so decided to use the old HWS hoping to get a year or 2 out of it

    since then we have moved again - that time we moved our whole house as it is a transportable - and the solar is still going strong despite us having very limey water ( Touch wood )

    but like christopher I am digressing :lol:

    could he be infecting us with contagious digressing disease (CDD :ANAL: ) :wink:

    back to the power

    in australia grid feed is not that good a prospect really

    a grid feed inverter cost from $5000 upwards

    you need at least 500w of solar to be able to get a contract

    the power company "buys" from you less GST and sells back with GST ..... so in essence you pay GST on all youdraw from the grid and can never break even if you produce as much as you use

    I also forgot to mention that AGM batteries start here from arround $800 each :shock:

    but please dont think I am being negative ........ I just thought it best to tell it as it is

    it is ridiculous that our govt doesnt give more support to people to use solar ........ under the previous govt there was a subsidy of $7 per watt on solar panels to be put on homes ........

    Bonsai's( :snakeman: ) govt initially cut it to $ 4 per watt then to $2.50 awnd I believe it is soon to stop :angryfire:

    frosty
     
  8. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Really, really, really be cautious if you are thinking that selling back power to the grid will make you money and not be a problem. On other boards I've heard nightmare stories about how The Grid is not really ready for this, and they do not cater to the person whose system depends on exporting power. There's a switching system required on their part to receive it, and it is not always reliable or available when power goes down.

    For those of us who are living out on our own, we really don't want to invite The Power Guys into our systems, especially when we live where the power can go out quite often. It's one more big organization to have to deal with. I much prefer having my setup, using it, maintaining it in my little peaceful world.



    tamandco, an inverter changes the power from DC (direct current, which is what a solar panel puts out) to AC (alternating current, which is what the grid puts out. ) Appliances in major stores are selling AC appliances. Batteries in a flashlight are DC. The cigarette lighter in your car is DC, it's attached to a battery. That's why solar panels are attached to batteries. That's where your power is stored until you use it. And if you start buying DC appliances (they tend to be available for motorhomes and off-grid people and are expensive) you wouldn't need an inverter, as mentioned above. But there aren't many of those, and we tend to already have AC appliances.

    But the feature that is important in a solar system is the charge controller, which is separate from the inverter, and it keeps track of when the batteries are full, because the solar panels don't stop feeding the batteries power, unless it's dark or stormy, and the batteries could overcharge and blow up. The controller protects the batteries. It also has an alarm for when the charge in the batteries is too low, and normally it wouldn't go off, but if it does, to save the batteries at that point you should stop using your solar power and switch over to oil lamps or whatever, until the sun comes up or the storm passes.

    If you look on the bottom or backs of appliances they are required to list how many watts it takes to run it, and that's where you start adding up whether you can use it on a solar system or not. Refrigerators are huge, electric heaters are huge, and require huge, expensive systems.

    I have a propane refrigerator, which isn't affected by either system, and I can keep extra tanks stored. But I do have to load those tanks and drive and get them refilled. It's not the safest cargo to be driving around, but I don't have to go far.

    And Mother Earth News has a plan for a water heater on a woodstove, but I think where you are it's not that cold where you'd keep the woodstove going 24 hours a day, or want to wait a couple of hours for hot water while you crank up the woodstove. Although it is a great idea. But passive hot water in black plastic pipe up on the roof works, and has the advantage of gravity flow into a tank or into the shower/kitchen. It needs to be thick black plastic pipe, not just white pipe painted black, because light will get through and create algae in the system.

    :)
     
  9. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    PS, of course, the water in the black pipe doesn't get hot at night or with cloud cover. But it does help to keep the hot water tank from coming on as much if it receives already-hot water.
     
  10. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    tamandco, speaking of a beer refrigerator, there is a commercial on the radio around here now about running a second refrigerator, and they are calling it a large white bandit with silver handles and 1980's rock band stickers on it. I wish I could find the transcript of it, it's funny but sobering! They apparently cost a LOT to run, so it is a real luxury to have one. It would save a pile just to not use it, keep a 6 pack cold and just replace as needed.
     
  11. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Sweetpea,

    You are in the US, and in various states they have what is called "net metering", which has power going in, and power going out. If you use power, you pay for it, if you sell power, you get paid for it.

    It largely depends on where you live and how accomodating the local provider is, and/or what the laws covering grid intieing mandate. I read that somewhere in the US (Wisconsin, Iowa?) thay pay you better than retail, but that doesn't do you much good when the grid is down.

    You are correct, I wouldn't do it if it was an option. Which it isn't as the grid is three kilometers away. I like having power when the grid goes down, and here in Belize, especially Toledo District, the power can go down for days. It was down for over a month after Hurricane Iris, and we had lights, even though we didn't have a roof....

    The main thing is that you need to reduce your energy consumption as much as possible before you go solar.

    Frosty. I may have infected you with Contagious Digression Disease. Hmmm. I don't remeber that. I must have blacked out. Was it any fun? :lol: Is that supposed to be me jumping up and down on someone? :ANAL: :ANAL: Ouch :shock: !

    I have often thought that if I could control my rambling nature, my topic riding free associating information downloading, that I would be a very boring person, so I have decided that I should go, go wherever my CDD takes me. In fact, my CDD is not a liablity, no, no, no, no, it is an ASSET!

    Imagine my poor wife. I can hardly get through a conversation.

    Joke:

    Q: How many guys with CDD does it take to change a lightbulb?

    A: Want to go for a bike ride?

    Christopher
     
  12. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    christopher quick post it's dreaded shopping day again :evil:

    except today we are picking up our goats too :D will post about them tomorrow ( see mild CDD attack :oops: )

    but what I had to say is PLEASE dont think I was criticising your CDD I love it 8) you have so many interesting things to tell us about whether on topic or on a little CDD deviation :lol: :lol: :lol:


    frosty
     
  13. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Thanks Sweetpea for all that brilliant info.

    We set up the beer fridge for my 40th in March and hubby thought it was so great, just left it running. I'll go and switch it off and wedge the door ajar until our next function requires it's use.

    It's a big expense and load on the system just for the convenience of having cold drinks, and the kids tend to abuse it, just help themselves to softdrink whenever they like, :x something I really didn't want to encourage, but it's amazing how in such a short time, bad habits can really set in :!:

    At this stage I'm keen on being able to supplement our power supply with something like solar which in the long term won't incur bills of it's own or drain. To introduce something like a proprane fridge or as recommended in the Rainbow Power website, generators, is in my opinion still burning up money and resources. :scratch:

    Oh, so now I see there's been this whole conversation going on while I've been busy reading Sweetpea's post and thinking of what to write. (Very slow at both, can type well but can't read or think very fast)

    Yes, it's shopping day for me here too and it's blowing a gale out there. Would just rather stay indoors and veg out in my pjs. Baby's still asleep so all's peaceful at present.

    So exciting about your goats Frosty. We're very low on $$$ at present and still trying to sort out the chooks, so unfortunately the idea of a goat has had to go on the back burner for a while. Might reconsider after lodging hubby's tax and getting my baby bonus and other child associated government payments. :D

    I went a bit mad on got obsessed with getting curtains. Even though they were from opshops and the ones in the lounge, from eBay, I didn't really think ahead and after having to buy hooks and rings, I've blown the budget for the next couple of months. :( I had some money put aside to buy my silkie rooster and have instead had to pay that on the credit card the other day so I'm now back to square one. (but still as determined as ever :wink: ) Must get those tax returns lodged :!: (is there one of these for 'extremely tired?')

    Tam
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Christopher, very funny joke! Wow, you have been through it there, lights but no roof!!!

    Yes, I know about how we can sell the power back to the power company, which is what I mentioned above, and lots of people I've talked to have had bad experiences. And when you think about it, even if we just buy power from them as usual, we often have problems! So why would they be any better at buying it back from us? Apparently they aren't, is what I'm hearing. But it strikes me that people on this board tend to be very independent anyway, and we're out on the fringes because we don't want to be tied into the mainstream. :)

    Tamandco, the fridge is a nice present, and I can see how tempting it would be to get treats from it. Ah, well, maybe if it's just on special occasions it will really feel like a treat!

    I think curtains are wonderful, and yes, it's tragic how much they charge us for the rods and clips and hooks Shame on them!!! But I think you'll enjoy them for a long time. I saw a home design program the other day where they bought a few dollars of beads, strung them on fishing line, and made curtain hooks that way, large loops that made the curtains fall in nice ways between them. Beaded fringe is so popular here, it's starting to show up on just about everything!
     
  15. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Tam here are a couple of pics showing how our panels sit on frames on the ground

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]


    also shows our gutless sand with nothing growing :roll: although right near the panels is part of the house pad

    in the background of the bottom pic you can see the pond
     
  16. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Hi Frosty,

    Thanks for those great pics. Seeing those makes me realise that it's achievable, but even to buy one at this stage, I need to pay off a $2500 debt first before the bank comes after me. After that, I'll put a bit away each fortnight so after a few months, might have enough for one, then after a few more months, another, etc.

    Tam
     
  17. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Frosty, lookin' good!! I like those frames! you mean you can leave your wires out on the ground and no little critters come along and chew them???????????
     
  18. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    er yes :? what sort of critters chew wires

    we have wild echidnas in the front bush and the occasional misguided roo jumps in but they only raid plants not wires

    Tam I know you arent ready yet but I thought if I put the photo here you will know where to find it when you are 8)

    we just watch out for second hand panels and keep adding as we can

    lately we have too many other "projects" so we havent vn tried testing the panels as christopher suggested

    althought the system is working much better lately so it may be just the winter lack of sun that was the problem

    we arent used to having as much rain as we had this year :eek:

    frosty
     
  19. baldcat

    baldcat Junior Member

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    Gotta love that rain... We had 70points down here on Friday night :D Everyone is most pleased..
     
  20. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Frosty,

    Have you tried checking each panel to see if you have a bckfeeding or shorted out panel?

    I like your panels. Looks like a Siemens 75 watt penels on the left (could also be Atropower or BP) a next panel that is red (?!?!), perhaps a solarex or kyocera monochrystalline and four polycrystalline kyoceras or solarex, or... dunno. Let me know if I got any of the panels correct.

    Amyway, they look gorgeous!

    What size wire are you using? If it is a small grade wire you could be getting less than you should because of resistance. I use heavy cable from the combiner box t the bus bars.

    As for rain, we had a wonderful downpour last night, with breeeeeeeeeeeeeze, sheeting horizontal rain and >lightning< (k-howowowowo...).

    Stope me before I digress again :lol:

    C
     

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