Punters – who kills the wind power fraud first: the UK, Germany or Australia?

Discussion in 'News from around the damp planet' started by Earth's Internet, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    Well written piece for who ? It's a well written piece for Ketan Joshi's employer "Infigen Wind Energy" and his good friend Professor Simon Chapman who he irresponsibly cites as a champion for making fun of people suffering from this syndrome. Earlier in this thread, this Chapman clown was heralded for his bogus "Nocebo effect", but he was also called on publicly the carpet for his part in the Dr Sarah Laurie character assassination by anonymous letter that attempted to get her fired and her work on the Wind Turbine Syndrome discredited. allegations dealt with Yeah boy, that's what real peer-reviewed science is all about these days.

    Now if you wish, you can find more of his Wind Industry pimping swill Here

    Ketan Joshi like his good buddy Simon Chapman is also critical and hateful towards Dr Sarah Laurie. In fact while apparently Chapman admits the anonymous draft [hence the public humiliation] there is also suspicion that Ketan Joshi may have such knowledge of this letter. The format of the complaint is very similar to that used by Infigen in its responses. Ketan (Infigen e3mployee) has denied to have been the author of the complaint, but refuses to elaborate whether the complaint came out of the offices of Infigen.

    The funny thing is that there was far more research done about this Wind Turbine noise complains years before, but Ketan conveniently ignores this as any good fraud would. Instead he levels his attacks on both these women. The Daniel Shepherd paper had been in the public domain for a year and it's been peer reviewed, published. Here And Professor Henrik Moller and Professor Christian Sejer Pedersen of Dänemark published the following article in mid-2011 using the wind industry’s own figures. Low-frequency noise from large wind turbines . Of course, no doubt these won't be considered credible peer-review even though such is religiously insisted upon these days. And yet, the Danish Government [big wind industries backyard] takes all these peer-reviews seriously as they are putting a halt on more Turbine farms.

    [video=youtube;J2xOnHL1vas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J2xOnHL1vas[/video]



    So yes, Ketan Joshi , employee and spokesman for Infigen Wind Energy, [former Babcock and Brown] has a vested interest in his company's wind energy interests going forwards. To his credit, he even admits his employment does colour his bias for reporting and writing.
     
  2. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    [video=youtube;JiCQabGuKFk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiCQabGuKFk[/video]
     
  3. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I am not sure why you referenced Moller and Pedersen's paper? It is a good paper. It does not draw any conclusions that any noise emitted by wind turbines is detrimental in any way to human health of those nearby.

    As I type this a bird scarer gun is going off in a pattern of 3 shots spaced about 2 seconds apart every 15 minutes about 300 metres from my house. Particularly on a windless day, it is very loud especially outside but also distinctly audible inside. This goes on from 7.30 am until nightfall for weeks. It 'does my head in'. I get cranky, irritable and start anticipating the noises. I 'listen' for it and get increasingly annoyed with it. My partner, who is not affected in the least, says 'just tune it out, then you don't even notice' - and he doesn't! He says it's like 'living next to a train line; after a while you don't even hear them anymore'. Meanwhile I get a tension headache from all the angst I build up about it. I suspect this is the beginning of my own 'Bird Scarer Syndrome'. If I was at home every day all day, there is fair chance I could get myself into such a state about the noise that I would actually become ill. So does that mean the Bird Scarer noise makes me ill? Or do I make myself ill? That is not a great analogy but I think there is some similarity there. Do I campaign to end the use of bird scarers here where I live? If my other neighbours who are actually closer do not have a 'problem' with it do I still have grounds to demand their use cease? The audible noise exists in this case, but it is MY perception and feelings around it which make me feel bad unlike others who are not 'hassled' by it at all. Their perception and feelings about it are quite different. Having spoken to my neighbours they accept it is needed and just carry on. They make an effort not to let it annoy them so they effectively seem to be able to block it out. Just some thoughts.

    Of course I do not know a lot about infra-sound. Can it have adverse effects on the physical human body at certain levels? I don't know. I do know that I have not seen sufficient credible research and study results and conclusions published which document that it does.
    If it does have undue effects, what are the properties of the infrasound which could be detrimental? I do know that elephants use infrasound to communicate on a daily basis and over both short and long distances. We are not elephants but we are an animal with similar physiological processes so it is interesting to me that infrasound emitted and received by elephants at different levels is not physically detrimental at all to them.
     
  4. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I am not sure why you referenced Moller and Pedersen's paper? It is a good paper. It does not draw any conclusions that any noise emitted by wind turbines is detrimental in any way to human health of those nearby.

    As I type this a bird scarer gun is going off in a pattern of 3 shots spaced about 2 seconds apart every 15 minutes about 300 metres from my house. Particularly on a windless day, it is very loud especially outside but also distinctly audible inside. This goes on from 7.30 am until nightfall for weeks. It 'does my head in'. I get cranky, irritable and start anticipating the noises. I 'listen' for it and get increasingly annoyed with it. My partner, who is not affected in the least, says 'just tune it out, then you don't even notice' - and he doesn't! He says it's like 'living next to a train line; after a while you don't even hear them anymore'. Meanwhile I get a tension headache from all the angst I build up about it. I suspect this is the beginning of my own 'Bird Scarer Syndrome'. If I was at home every day all day, there is fair chance I could get myself into such a state about the noise that I would actually become ill. So does that mean the Bird Scarer noise makes me ill? Or do I make myself ill? That is not a great analogy but I think there is some similarity there. Do I campaign to end the use of bird scarers here where I live? If my other neighbours who are actually closer do not have a 'problem' with it do I still have grounds to demand their use cease? The audible noise exists in this case, but it is MY perception and feelings around it which make me feel bad unlike others who are not 'hassled' by it at all. Their perception and feelings about it are quite different. Having spoken to my neighbours they accept it is needed and just carry on. They make an effort not to let it annoy them so they effectively seem to be able to block it out. Just some thoughts.

    Of course I do not know a lot about infra-sound. Can it have adverse effects on the physical human body at certain levels? I don't know. I do know that I have not seen sufficient credible research and study results and conclusions published which document that it does.
    If it does have undue effects, what are the properties of the infrasound which could be detrimental? I do know that elephants use infrasound to communicate on a daily basis and over both short and long distances. We are not elephants but we are an animal with similar physiological processes so it is interesting to me that infrasound emitted and received by elephants at different levels is not physically detrimental at all to them.
     
  5. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    Because to read most of Ketan Joshi's articles [most of which are last year and this year's half] you'd think there was nothing prior to his appearance on the scene. The very people he demonizes and makes fun of have been doing these studies for years and were peer-reviewed. He reminds me of a for the smoking industry's payrolled Scientists or Climate Change Deniers set up by Big Oil to debunk opposition to petroleum or coal. All they job description calls for is to sow seeds of DOUBT . That's it, they don't have to disprove anything. He clearly has a vested personal interest in seeing his Wind Energy employment continue as he himself admits to such bias.

    BTW, the 2011 Henrik Møller and Christian Sejer Pedersen paper did conclude - "It is thus beyond any doubt that the low-frequency part of the spectrum plays an important role in the noise at the neighbors." , but there is no doubt in my mind that everyone is unique and effected differently and under differing circumstances.

    Exactly - For example people who live in rurals may be more sensitive, than people in cities to noise. I had a hard time sleeping for a year after sold my place high up in the mountains after 24 years and living back at my mum's place prior to moving to Europe. Mum's place also is 2 miles from a freeway, which may seem like a long way away to most folks. I remember on certain weather condition days being able to hear a neighbour and his wife a quarter of a mile away having a normal conversation and understanding every word perfectly. Also I remember my house being on a mountainside with a 180 degree view and while sitting on my porch enjoying the stillness of the country life I could here a small car more than 7 miles[as a bird flies] across a large valley coming through a mountain pass on the opposite side of that valley and having it sound like it was passing my house on the road that was a mere 25 meters away.

    I also remember being sensitive to smog and driving towards LA having to pass through Riverside CA. When driving, the sky was crystal clear blue, but at a city before Riverside called Perris, there was a brown wall that you couldn't see through. Once you pass through this very distinct wall, visibility goes down to no more than a quarter mile or many times less. Almost immediately my eyes would burn and water, but most people living in the city never experience this. My reaction though was very real.

    On my visit to California during April/May, we visited the desert around Palm Springs area where there are literally 1000s of wind turbines which have been around since the early 1980s. Taking photos of cactus and other wildlife down wind, you can hardly stand to be out there with all that noise. And some of the people disturbed by the noise are from there. There may be no doubt some low frequency which travels and magnified through building structure amplifying it for some.
     
  6. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    "Exactly - For example people who live in rurals may be more sensitive, than people in cities to noise. I had a hard time sleeping for a year after sold my place high up in the mountains after 24 years and living back at my mum's place prior to moving to Europe. Mum's place also is 2 miles from a freeway, which may seem like a long way away to most folks. I remember on certain weather condition days being able to hear a neighbour and his wife a quarter of a mile away having a normal conversation and understanding every word perfectly. Also I remember my house being on a mountainside with a 180 degree view and while sitting on my porch enjoying the stillness of the country life I could here a small car more than 7 miles[as a bird flies] across a large valley coming through a mountain pass on the opposite side of that valley and having it sound like it was passing my house on the road that was a mere 25 meters away.

    I also remember being sensitive to smog and driving towards LA having to pass through Riverside CA. When driving, the sky was crystal clear blue, but at a city before Riverside called Perris, there was a brown wall that you couldn't see through. Once you pass through this very distinct wall, visibility goes down to no more than a quarter mile or many times less. Almost immediately my eyes would burn and water, but most people living in the city never experience this. My reaction though was very real. "

    So true EI. Some people are just sensitive to noises and then others are sensitive to just some noises. There is condition known as misophonia where some are sensitive to particular noises that drive them nuts. Call it psychological but it is a condition.

    I have extremely sensitive hearing, even to the point of feeling the vibration of the sound. It feels like the sound goes straight through me at times. I was down the beach a while back and I could hear a clicking sound. No one with me could hear it. It was as plain as day to me. As we got closer to the rocks it got louder and louder. Still no one but me could hear it. As we walked on the rocks (it was low tide) one of my friends bent down and heard it. It was oysters and barnacles clicking, hardly detectable. I don't think any scientific instrument would think it was so audible but to me it was.
     
  7. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    Yup, after a year I was finally able to sleep at night there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the environment improved. Funny thing is, in cities, you won't hear the same distance conversation phenomena you do in wilderness. There is a constant roar of all manner of sounds which are blurred together. There are clearly many things that are not good for you. Getting use to smog where your eyes don't burn or water anymore would certainly NOT be considered a healthy thing either. The fact that some are sensitive and more effected by this Wind Turbine Syndrome than others and made fun of and demonized by the likes of Wind Promoting Shills like Ketan Joshi and his cowardly friend Chapman should speak volumes about their character and true motives. I've noticed Ketan is not as smart-assy and arrogant since his own involvement in the anonymous letter has surfaced and he is questioned about this. Though no doubt he'll continue to pimp for his company with all the prejudice and bigotry of any good company man.
     
  8. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    This is all very interesting, in an anecdotal kind of way, and I thank you all for sharing your stories. However, it does not alter the fact that there is no credible (peer-reviewed) scientific evidence to support the claim that wind turbines cause people to become ill. Whereas the nocebo (negative of plecebo) effect is widely recognised within the literature. For people who live near turbines and are annoyed by their operation, I am genuinely sorry. As I am for people who live near bird scare guns, or freeways for that matter. We have neighbourhood dogs that bark, often for hours (and occasionally for days) on end. I find it annoying, for about 5-mins, before focusing on something else - reading, listening to music, meditating, working in the garden, cutting wood, studying, writing, changing nappies, preparing dinner ... and luckily I'm able to get over it and go about enjoying life.
     
  9. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    Wind Turbine Syndrome was being documented in science journals in the late 70s, early 80s (U.S. Dept. of Energy)



    This is not a recent phenomena cooked up by activists against irresponsible wind energy companies, and we've already been through this web link of the liar and academic propagandist Simon Chapman[not a scientist but rather sociologist & nocebo pimper] for his personal attacks and cowardly accusations against to discredit Dr Sarah Laurie for which he was publicly humiliated. He also criticized and made snarky remarks about a Pharmacists George Papadopoulos who a month later fought back with his own words:

    The ironic thing is, this "nocebo effect" is championed by most of the Global Warming or Climate Change deniers. Funny how it's okay in this instance, especially considering this nonscientist sociologist who has no Medical license to conduct research has already been exposed as a lying coward. I guess we all have to be reminded again, don't we ?

    [video=youtube;uy5AOGXdUKo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy5AOGXdUKo&feature=youtu.be[/video]

    What's fascinating is that this cowardly fraud Chapman insists he didn't write the anonymous letter from academics, but he saw the drafts of it. Seriously ?

    Bigotry, arrogance, personal bias and pride are tough things for Industrial Science supporters to shed. I trust this will be mere water off a duck's back again!
     
  10. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    It would appear the discourse on this particular subject, in this particular thread, has yet again devolved into ad hominem. Which is a shame, because there are so many great wind projects happening right now at this very moment, and it is hard to bring them to the attention of the very same people that could most likely benefit from them while so much energy is taken up with nonsensical diatribe.

    However, I guess we have to keep trying. As such, please note that the Hepburn Wind model is set to be rolled out in its neighbouring LGA in the form of Mount Alexander Community Wind. Congratulations to all involved on this local community-driven, cooperatively-owned and operated, permaculture-inspired, and sustainable energy initiative!
     
  11. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    Playing the innocent victim is getting old. Pot to Kettle again ? The usual Double Standard ploy ? The subject brought up once again by you here was the liar and coward Simon Chapman who YOU championed as Mr 'Nocebo Effect' who never interviewed victims and simply named called "Nimbys" and he has already been exposed and discredited. That fact that you this truth disturbs you is irrelevant. Chapman is still a liar and coward along with Ketan Joshi, both of whom champion and speak for Wind Energy promotion. No conflict of interest there though. With Chapman, it isn't so much what he knows as who he knows.

    I guess climate change is now a fraud too & Climate Change supporters now are Nimbys - astonishing


    -
     
  12. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    OK, EI, I'll give it one last crack. I know, I'm a glutton for punishment. But hey, that's the way I roll (as the kids say). You, Sir, opened this thread (in the NEWS sub-forum, I might add) with a link to an article that is, in my opinion, very questionable in its NEWSworthy integrity, both in terms of content and delivery. That's cool, not a problem. We here at the PRI Forum are open to most things, and censorship is a rare occurrence as a consequence. However, as a consequence of opening and reading your OP, I took it as an opportunity to study the entire website from whence the article came, for about an hour - I know, double glutton! To be quite frank with you, I found it extremely low brow. But hey, also cool, if that's what floats one's boat. Subsequently, in my initial response, I offered some comment around both the website in question, and the issue of wind energy in general. The latter I would consider to be from an impeccable source, and at last viewing found it to contain no less than seventeen articles. Not all in favour of wind, in all locations, mind you, and some for the good reasons that you have attempted to point out - mainly around poor siting (e.g. bird strike, neighbourhood disturbance, low visual amenity, etc.). I did all of this with a genuine desire to lift the integrity of the discourse. But alas, it wasn't to be. Every time I pointed out the credible, peer-reviewed scientific point of view, you tried (in vein, I might add) to return us to the tea-party-esque trash of the OP. Even when I pointed out to your good self, Sir, on at least three separate occasions, that the type of wind energy facility I support has nothing whatsoever to do with the industrial and corporate, and everything to do with well planned, impeccably transparent, decentralised, localised, community-owned and cooperatively-operated wind energy facilities, you chose to ignore the good work that some of us are trying to implement. That's cool, like I said, It's your thread, knock yourself out. But just don't call it NEWS. I understand you mean well, and from reading your blog I see you are doing some good things, as I have previously acknowledged. However, I think you have seriously misjudged my purpose and intent of contributing to this particular thread, and as a result it is much the poorer for it. In conclusion, I wish you well on your journey, and I truly am sorry if I have upset you in any way. As for my own well being, fear not. You have not upset me in slightest, just made me even more tired than usual. I must leave this thread now. Of course, I cannot promise that I shall not return least some outrageous piece of NEWS finds its way here. But, overall, my work load has increased exponentially of late which means that unless you have some Earth-shattering piece of real NEWS to offer, we probably will not meet here again. Farewell, adieu, cheerio, and goodbye (for now). Kind regards, Markos.
     
  13. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Yup, that is the point I was trying to get across but I think it was lost.
     
  14. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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  15. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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