Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops Anywhere?

Discussion in 'Permaculture consultants, businesses, resources' started by M1ch23l, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    Am 09.06.2013 08:18, schrieb John Liu:
    > Dear Michael:
    > Thanks for this and hello from the 3rd International Water Symposium in Tamera, Portugal.
    > There is a quite lengthy discussion about whether the population can be fed with non-chemical non-industrial agriculture to be undertaken. I think it is too simple to just assume that organic agriculture or permaculture are incapable of feeding the existing and growing human population. The answer to the question is not simply about productivity but about energy, transportation, choice, diet, lifestyle, work, and human intentions.
    > My own opinion is that functional ecosystems are vastly more productive than dysfunctional ones and that a varied bio-diverse diet is healthier than one based on a few crops or large amounts of industrially produced meat. So the argument that it is impossible to feed the world with non-polluting, non-industrial agriculture is mostly about the assumption that the current economic system and industrial agriculture must inevitably remain.
    > If on the other hand it is possible for human beings to evolve a higher consciousness and to restore the vast areas of the planet that have been degraded by human beings over historical time and that human beings voluntarily chose to eat a more healthy diverse diet then there could be another outcome. Admittedly there are many ifs but this seems to be the hope for humanity and for the Earth and something to work toward as rapidly as possible.
    > Here in Tamera there is a great work going on. The community is rehydrating a watershed and showing a model of how vast areas could be restored with both ecological function and agricultural productivity increased. While each biome is different there are principles of restoration as well as specific techniques which could vastly improve the ecological function, sequester vast amounts of carbon, protect biodiversity, increase nutrient production (albeit with a healthier more varied diet than the current industrial one) and make both landscapes and human communities more resilient. If large numbers of people were to choose this peaceful lifestyle then it would change the direction of human development and could lead to a new era of peace and enlightenment.
    > I am in Europe at the moment and will remain here for a few weeks. I go from here Portugal to Sweden for the Tallberg Forum next week. Then the week after I'm in London to speak to a large corporation and to meet with government representatives. I'm also planning to film innovative constructed wetlands that filter pollution and provide affordable and ecologically sound sanitation. This model could help many parts of the world reduce pollution and restore natural nutrient flows by recycling human waste into nutrient streams. This is a major part of realizing that humanity is part of nature and getting back on a path where human life is not in opposition to nature but in harmony with it. I'll be done around the 21st of June and then some business in Berlin and could drop into Caux in Switzerland for a conference (or not) and could meet Bill Mollinsson and Geoff Lawton in Barcelona (or not).
    > Where are you in the last 10 days of June? Perhaps we could have dinner somewhere and discuss the potential of collaboration?
    > Best regards,
    > John
    > John D Liu
    > Director, Environmental Education Media Project (EEMP)
    > Senior Research Fellow, IUCN
    > Visiting Fellow, Faculty of Earth and Life Sciences, VU (Vrije University Amsterdam)
    > [email protected]
    > +86-13911-565016
    >
     
  2. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    Betreff: Re: Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops
    Datum: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 04:27:13 +0200
    Von: Michael Altherr
    Antwort an: [email protected]
    An: Craig Mackintosh | PRI



    Hi Craig

    Thank you very much for your prompt and strong answer to my email.

    I will yet have to look through your links and will reply again in the forum, maybe also posting some other interesting answers that I have received in the meantime.

    Following I'll be forwarding my emails sent to addresses associated with Geoff Lawton earlier: He would not have time to answer all emails he receives, of course, as I'm aware too. My punch was intended to evoke some answers and my impression is that it worked quite well even if maybe it wasn't necessary: Sorry and thanks again! Yet, as you will see, I'm still not convinced.

    And: "Blog post under my name"? Additional to the thread I opened in your forum? Yes, please, thanks.

    You know, I just wonder how, in a world where 1 billion goes hungry - still, and again: Aren't we entering the Age of Declines? - some dying every day, with rampant ecosystems degradation (see following email and links by John Dennis Liu, www.eemp.org), we will feed ourselves and preserve the diversity and beauty of life on this planet. I understood that the promising - illusory? after all we are wrecking up the planet since tenthousands of years, it's our core competence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event - term "permaculture" was derived from "permanent agriculture", hence meaning sustainable AGRICULTURE, which goes way beyound gardening for self sustenance - which also is a great thing and might go a long way, of course.

    Yet, growing food for a family or small community will not do for all of us: How to sustainably grow food for the people - the "slaves" of us lucky ones? - who produce our cheap clothes, furnitures, cars, computers, tools, etc., with no time and energy left for gardening? And, even if we'd change the economy to a "greener" one, incorporating hidden costs into our balances, how to sustainably produce food for the billions of us living in towns, without land of their own, whose "balcony and rooftop permaculture gardens" aren't enough to sustain them? If they all went out of town to seek a plot of land for for living and growing food, would they all find one? And how much space would then still be left for wildlife?

    I tend to share Helmut Lubbers pessimism: www.ecoglobe.ch. Richard Heinberg recommends not to fall from dispair and resignation into depression. Coming out of depression again, determined to enjoy life while it lasts and to "fight to the end", which is easily said when living in Switzerland with central heating and the grocery store accross the road, I try to figure out if "permaculture", a beautiful concept addressing all aspects of life, might prolong the human story and that of our fellow beings on this planet, and how to help promote it - or if it is merely another way of "milking problems" and a nice pastime besides that?

    A typical example: "Oekom Research" (www.oekom-research.com) last year rated Coop (www.coop.ch: Its marketing and advertisment mainly and typically focusses on "natural, biological production, fairness and sustainability", i. e. "permaculture", no? - and on high quality and low, respectively lowest prices, of course), one of the two biggest Swiss wholesalers, as "prime" and as the "most sustainable wholesaler worldwide" (nota bene: relative to its competitors only, not relative to the goal "sustainability", which is typical for the kind of rampant illusionism regarding "sustainability" - and maybe also "permaculture"?), before Walmart, etc. Guess what's Coop's overall turnover from so called "sustainable" products: 8%! In one of the richest countries on Earth. The market potential estimated by Coop's Head of Sustainable Brands: Max. 20%. And even that won't do to save the world from being eaten and housed to crumbles. Will "permaculture"?

    However: Cheers and every good wish! To Permaculture!

    Michael


    PS:

    Some in the forum asked about my own background - and I keep wondering about it too: I was trained a building draftsman, worked in large construction projects in Switzerland, then after 8 months as a volunteer in Bafut, Cameroon, 3 years in Bhutan (www.helvetas.ch), leaving behind most of my heart, studied physical planning and then rational energy usage in the building sector, realised it all either doesn't add up or isn't sufficiently applied, worked as premises mgr. for "Cash for Shit" (www.credit-suisse.com) and "United Bandits of Switzerland" (www.ubs.com), was sacked with a bonus for sexual harrassment, over a well intended but ill-received joke about a joke, worded tactfully with great sensitivity, about "Fucked Most Clients", a contractor with smart and beautiful employees, the joke being taxed as having a multi-million dollar dammage potential by Chief Risk Officer and CEO of the business group, HR, in the firm's and the trade's usual fashion promptly and respectably lying at my joke's addressee, scared of loosing her work for having exchanged emails with me, then, luckily liberated, had enough of senseless monkeywork but didn't find any other, not even when aspiring and being selected and trained to help the neediest (www.skh.ch), as self sustenance typically is human being's and organisation's first intrinsic aim, which became beautifully obvious once again during Tsunami reconstruction in Southeast Asia, where 1/8 of all aid money is said to have received the people it was intended for, which was, of course, virtuously denied by all the Chief Officers of Balefulness in charge, then studied management and business administration, confirming my confirmation that we're perfectly equipped and trained for fucking up Gaia, our own mother, and for the past ten years read, researched, soul and body searched and monkeyworked and odd-jobbed again for various companies, amongst them a contractor to Baselworld (www.baselworld.com), again to make the rich richer from the work of the bloody poor, was employed on probation by Fredmund Malik (www.mzsg.ch: Check out his interactive cybernetic management models for doing the wrong thing right and well) who terminated me after three months of pounding him with project proposals for saving the world, survived as moverman and sawmill production worker, producing ammunition for our war of greed, comfort and stupidity against agricultural self sustenance and the beauty of our country, covering it with, oh, so homely single family homes, leaving oneandathird fingers behind for my near worst pay ever, was near blind for some time, which truly made me apprechiate technical welfare civilisation, meanwhile being father of two wonderful boys, called into life in moments of conscious and reckless, irresponsible enthusiasm, still asking myself: "Is there a better way of living on this planet?", as I heard David Holmgren to have put it: Now, is there, really, for everybody - men, mice, cat and all?

    Michael Altherr
    Rousseaustrasse 28
    CH-8037 Zürich
    [email protected]
    +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
     
  3. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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  4. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    Thanks again Markos, and here's yet another one:

    https://www.permaculturenews.org/author/Warren Brush

    www.quailsprings.org


    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    Betreff: Re: Permakultur-Erträge
    Datum: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 20:48:24 +0200
    Von: Beat Rölli
    An: [email protected]


    Hallo Michael
    habe dieses Wochenende Warren Brush getroffen. Er und sein Team ca. 17 Leute betreiben seit gut einem Jahr eine 20 Hektaren grosse Farm in Kalefornien. (Er betreibt daneben schon eine andere Farm) Sie sind bereits das erste Jahr profitabel. Sie gehen davon aus, dass sie schon bald die profitabelste Farm der Gegend (St. Barbara County 900'000 Einwohner) sein werden.
    Ihr Erfolgsrezept: Effiziente Lösungen nach Permakultur in der Produktion. Eine grosse Vielfalt von Primärprodukten. Eigene Veredelung der Produkte. (Sie haben eine eigene Käserei mit exklusiven Käsen) und Direktvermarktung. Das gleiche Konzept ausser PK Produktion machen auch viele erfolgreiche Bauern in der Schweiz.
    Sie haben mehrere Unternehmen auf dem Hof.
    Das Team besteht vor allem aus Verwandten.

    Mit freundlichen Grüssen

    Beat Rölli Unter-Grundhof 20 CH-6032 Emmen 041 210 92 91 [email protected] www.permakultur-beratung.ch

    Sorge für die Erde - Sorge für die Menschen – Teile und limitiere deinen Konsum Bitte denken Sie an die Umwelt, bevor Sie dieses e-mail ausdrucken.
    Jetzt anmelden! Permakultur-Design-Training 2013 LInk zum Trailer https://youtu.be/kZ_QLDgydN0
    20 Tage von März – Nov. 2013
    Am 04.06.2013 um 23:52 schrieb Michael Altherr:
    >
    > Diesen Thread hab ich hier kürzlich eröffnet, und einige interessante Links finden sich in den Antworten:
    >
    > https://forums.permaculturenews.org...and-Staple-Crops-Anywhere&p=103808#post103808
    >
    >
    >
    > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    > Betreff: Re: Fwd: Permakultur-Erträge
    > Datum: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:36:26 +0100 (BST)
    > Von: Harald Wedig
    > Antwort an: Harald Wedig
    > An: [email protected]
    >
    > Lieber Herr Altherr, Ihre letzte mail hat mit keine Ruhe gelassen. Ich möchte die Möglichkeit unsere Welt permakulturell ernähren zu können bejahen. Allerdings nicht innerhalb des bestehenden ökonomischen Modells. Innerhalb einer solidarischen Subsistenzwirtschaft sehe ich PK als Zukunftsmodell. Dazu müssen genügend Menschen permakulturelles Grundwissen erhalten und wir befinden uns am Beginn eben dieses Bildungs- und sozialökonomischen Gestaltungsprozesses.
    > Herzhaften Gruss, Harald Wedig
    > Von: Michael Altherr
    > An: Harald Wedig
    > Gesendet: 21:23 Montag, 3.Juni 2013
    > Betreff: Re: Fwd: Permakultur-Erträge
    >
    > Sehr geehrter Herr Wedig
    >
    > Vielen Dank für Ihre freundliche und prompte Antwort.
    >
    > Dass Permakultur alle Lebensbereiche umfassen müsste, ist auch meine Auffassung - aber wir leben, letztlich, von der Landwirtschaft, der Urproduktion, darum gilt dieser ein primäres Interesse, und besteht von ihr eine besondere Abhängigkeit, das voraussichtlich in dem Mass aktueller werden, und die in dem Mass verstärkt wird, in dem wir in den "Post Peak Oil Downslope" hineingeraten, und in dem unser Naturverbrauch weiter steigt, sowieso, und erst recht im aussichtslosen(?) Bemühen um Ersatz des Erdöls. Wir werden uns bald an andere Standards gewöhnen müssen.
    >
    > Meine Frage ist, ob die Prinzipien und Methoden der Permakultur für die Welternährung genügende Erträge bringen, und dabei noch die Produktionsgrundlagen - unsere natürlichen Lebensgrundlagen und die Schönheit und Vielfalt der lebendigen Welt - erhalten oder verbessern können. Ihre Antwort muss ich diesbezüglich als mindestens vorläufig verneinend verstehen, da Sie keine entsprechenden konkreten Beispiele nennen.
    >
    > In dem Mass in dem sich der Hunger verbreitet, werden auch die Erzeuger von Lebensmitteln, sicher aber ihre Erzeugnisse, eine höhere Wertschätzung erfahren, Permakultur hin oder her: Es wird um sie gekämpft werden.
    >
    > Lokale Selbstversorgung, so weitgehend wie möglich - wie in noch sehr bescheidenem Ausmass(?) in Ihrem erfreulichen, romantischen verlinkten Projekt - wird unerlässlich werden: In den Städten werden wir Kartoffel-Bohnen-Mais-Mischkulturen ins Rasen-Abstandsgrün zwischen den Häusern pflanzen, und Obstbäume in die Alleen, aber satt werden davon werden wir oder unsere Enkel, tiefer im "PPOD", mutmasslich erst, bzw. weiterhin erst mit Nahrungsmitteln von anderswo, oder nachdem viele von uns verhungert sind. Und Kleider, Autos und Computer werden auch in Zukunft nicht auf den Bäumen wachsen.
    >
    > 1 Milliarde Menschen hungern jetzt bereits. Ich hoffe, ich sehe das alles zu pessimistisch, dass wir uns nicht zuviele Illusionen machen, und dass wir mit Permakultur den Hunger ganz aus der Welt schaffen, degradierte Lebensräume regenerieren, und die noch vorhandene natürliche Artenvielfalt erhalten können: Jedenfalls ist machen und selber machen angesagt, und Zusammenarbeit, in einer sinnstiftenden Perma-Parallel- und -Allerweltskultur.
    >
    > Herzliche Grüsse
    >
    > Michael Altherr
    > Michael Altherr
    > Rousseaustrasse 28
    > CH-8037 Zürich
    > [email protected]
    > +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    > +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
    > Am 03.06.2013 19:47, schrieb Harald Wedig:
    >> Sehr geehrter Herr Altherr, immer wieder erreichen mich Anfragen, die in die Richtung der Ihren zielen.
    >> Allen liegt ein grundsätzliches Missverständnis zugrunde: das Permakultur allein eine landwirtschaftlich/ gärtnerische Anbaumethode sei.
    >> Das aber ist sie mitnichten!
    >> Permakultur ist eine Gestaltungsmethode mit dern Hilfe zukunftsfähige Lebensräume und Lebenstile und Lebensstrategien geschaffen werden können.
    >> In diesem Sinne kann ein Jeder die Art von Wertschöpfung bzw. Anbaumethode und - intensität wählen, die in sein permakulturelles Konzept passt.
    >> Auch grüner Tourismus und permakultrelle Weiterbildung können durchaus da hinein passen, zumal hierbei der finanzielle Ertrag erfreulicherweise höher liegt als bei der landwirtschaftlich, gärtnerischen Urproduktion, die den Erzeuger wertvoller Lebensmittel dazu verdammt innerhalb der Ökonomie der 1.Welt, sich mit 3.Welt- Erträgen abspeisen zu lassen.
    >> Will aber ein Permakulturist glaubhaft Weiterbildung anbieten, so ist er natürlich gut beraten, nach eben seinen eigenen Prinzipien zu leben und sich demgemäss mit Lebensmitteln zu versorgen.
    >> Herzhaften Gruß, Harald Wedig, hier ein paar infos zu meinem eigenen Projekt in Aufbau: Folxgarden
    >> https://www.facebook.com/Folxgarden
    >> Von: Michael Altherr
    >> An: [email protected]
    >> Gesendet: 13:30 Sonntag, 2.Juni 2013
    >> Betreff: Fwd: Permakultur-Erträge
    >> Guten Tag Herr Wedig
    >> Auf der Suche nach Permakulturmethoden die einen lohnenden Ertrag bringen und dabei noch die Produktionsgrundlagen verbessern, kontaktiere ich derzeit Permakulturisten und Projekte.
    >>
    >> Mich interessiert sehr, ob Ihnen Projekte und Methoden bekannt sind, die erwiesenermassen oder nach Ihrem Ermessen potentiell nicht mehrheitlich durch Publikumsinteresse, Tourismus, Kurse und Beratungen, sondern durch die eigenen Landwirtschafts- und Gartenerträge finanziert sind.
    >> Können und wollen Sie mir dazu etwas sagen, und mir deren Kontaktangaben übermitteln?
    >>
    >> Vielen Dank und freundliche Grüsse
    >>
    >> Michael Altherr
    >> PS:
    >> Mein Interesse an der Permakultur entspringt meiner Sorge um die Gesundheit, Vielfalt und Schönheit der Welt und unserer Lebensgrundlagen, als Baufachmann, ehemaliger "Entwicklungshelfer", Vater zweier Kinder, auf der Suche nach einem Lebenserwerb der mehr ist als Raubbau, Problembewirtschaftung oder Dienstleistung und Infrastrukturerhaltung.
    >> --
    >> Michael Altherr
    >> Rousseaustrasse 28
    >> CH-8037 Zürich
    >> [email protected]
    >> +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    >> +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
     
  5. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    Constructive means realistic, no? Like countless others I'm looking at the permaculture revolution, aspiring to contribute my bit towards it. Whether or not it will bless us with a positive EROEI - impossible? unlikely ever? maybe ultimately? - and large scale preserved and increasing biodiversity remains to be seen, but there appear to be lots of projects under way that already mark an improvement of the status quo.
     
  6. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    With increasing scarcity of oil, remaining forests and wetlands will come under even bigger pressure, and might disappear altogether. Preserving and restoring them is the biggest challenge of the permaculture revolution. If we cannot succeed, it's game over for our species, and also for the planet's megafaunal biodiversity - at least for a few hundred million years.
     
  7. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    And succeeding, very likely, will be equally horrendous as failing, as it will probably mean that the rich will keep the starving poor out of the forests with soldiers and superior weaponry.
     
  8. createwilderness

    createwilderness New Member

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    Climate:
    Dfb(Köppen)- Warm summer continental or hemiboreal climates
    stop pseudo solutions and corruption, like the WWF's(but how??) - i like the term "green-washing". also the link - https://www.pandaleaks.org/book/ . i can't figure out how to comment on daniel tyrkiel's article on working with ngo's but he should definetly get this info.
     

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