Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops Anywhere?

Discussion in 'Permaculture consultants, businesses, resources' started by M1ch23l, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    [SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops Anywhere?
    [/SIZE]
    Dear All

    I am fervently looking for permaculture projects that are sustained not through public interest, tourism, courses and councelling but from their own harvests, also of niche products but preferably also of staple crops.

    If you can and wish to let me know their contact data, I will then further investigate and do my very best to spread word about it amongst places and people in a position to further research and promote and apply their methods.
    [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]In theory permaculture works, but [SIZE=+1]s[/SIZE][/SIZE]o far, under the given conditons, sadly, it so far looks as if permaculture was a marketing and feelgood hype rather than a[SIZE=+1] feasible sustainable[/SIZE] agricu[SIZE=+1]ltural production approach [SIZE=+1]capable of feeding the masses and preserving the pla[SIZE=+1]net for our descendants[/SIZE]:

    I simply don't get any positive answers from any permaculture adresses contacted with this inquiry[SIZE=+1].[/SIZE] When I contact permaculturists regarding [SIZE=+1]cour[SIZE=+1]ses or consultations, however, I get [SIZE=+1]immediate replies, so it appears to me that the core competence of permaculturists are thinking, t[SIZE=+1]alking, teaching and hobby gardening, not agriculture[SIZE=+1] or even [/SIZE]permaculture.

    [SIZE=+1]However, there must be some permaculture projects producing profitably, som[SIZE=+1]ewh[SIZE=+1]ere, maybe such also that don't run under the term "permaculture", but that apply permaculture [SIZE=+1]principles, knowingly or not[/SIZE]:

    What are their addresses, please, does[SIZE=+1] anyone know[SIZE=+1]?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
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    Thanking you, with kind regards,

    Michael
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  2. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Try Purple Pear Organics for starters. Then work your way through the World Wide Permaculture Network.

    You'll find that the aim of permaculture is NOT to feed the 'masses'. It's to feed the local community.

    I'm slightly bothered that you would presumably count my backyard garden with its 50 fruit trees, chickens and productive vegetable gardens to be not permaculture and just a 'hobby'. It's a significant way to reduce my use of food produced on non-sustainable agricultural farms.

    You would do well to refresh your memory on what permaculture is before you drop by here and start telling people that we aren't doing it right. Why aren't you doing it?
     
  3. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Yeah, I'm suspicious of that post Eco. The cut and pasted font is a clue...
     
  4. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Michael, welcome to the PRI Forum.

    With an introduction such as what you have presented us with, I am not surprised. I strongly suspect, however, that if you were to rephrase your inquiry - perhaps by better introducing yourself, telling us a little about how you came to be here, and quite a bit more about what you plan to do with any information that you may be privileged with - people will (most likely) be more conducive to your request.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  5. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    You're right in that permaculture is not a feasible sustainable agriculture, nor was it intended to be. Permaculture is a feasible sustainable horticulture. There's probably a reason why it's called the Garden of Eden instead of the Farm of Eden. You can't make monocrop agriculture sustainable. You can't mechanically harvest from a permaculture garden, even if it is broadacre(or it wouldn't be worth the time and investment in equipment since you shouldn't be growing row upon row of wheat, for example).

    Permaculture, I'm happy to reply, is not marketing or hype. It does work. My yard is clay hardpan with sand as backfill. When the grass was removed(in places), the sand was still a nice yellow color after 30 years. Now my sand is becoming soil, and in certain spots, it is almost black(my hands get really dirty now instead of the former sterile and clean environment) since I've only been gardening going on 5 years now, and studying permaculture for a little over 2 . Once that soil starts holding water and nutrients, it's game over.

    Permaculture is also not about monetary wealth. Monetary wealth, in and of itself, is unsustainable. For an economy to remain healthy, it must have inflation, and we all know about inflation. So if all you're taking from permaculture is a way to design food systems, you're missing a large section on home and community building too. Permaculture doesn't "plug in" to capitalist western society easy, though you can make enough money to pay for necessary services. Since capitalist western society is unsustainable, permaculture is pretty much the answer to it, in its entirety. Toby Hemenway says that (and I misquote) Permaculture can save the human race, but not civilization. I keep finding more truth to that statement all the time.

    Teaching permaculture is the easiest way to make what's considered a living wage, within permaculture, which could be why there are so many people doing it(not the only reason, someone does have to be the teacher after all). Most people who practice permaculture would probably sell directly off the land, or at a farmer's market locally. Personally, my model of business would probably be a "U Pick" deal, where people can walk across the land, enjoy the scenery and get a better understanding of exactly what permaculture can do. As you can imagine, this wouldn't be a high income project, but it would still provide an income. Given enough land, that meager income can easily be enough to live on since the land would also be providing water, fuel wood, lumber, food, electricity, medicine and maybe even textiles to make clothing. The possibilities are endless. Even in western society, everything comes from the environment and most medicines are chemical "improvements" to substances that plants provide naturally.

    In closing, if you find a permacultural agriculture system, I'd suspect it to be permaculture in name only. While permaculture does work on a large scale, the food systems don't. There are no acres of sweet potato, wheat, corn or anything else that can be easily or mechanically harvested at a single time. That's not what permaculture does. You're snipe hunting.
     
  6. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    My response to Michael:

     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
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    Cool responses!

    Craig, I'm not sure publishing the man's name, address and contacts is ok. I would be pretty pissed if you put my email online in the clear like that (I also wouldn't want my physical address and phone number on the webs like that either).
     
  8. matto

    matto Junior Member

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  9. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    www.taranakifarm.com.au

    http://www.permaculture.co.uk/artic...in-creates-self-generating-profitable-enterpr

     
  10. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    Dear All, Thank you very much for your kind and prompt and interesting replies! I'll read them more thoroughly and thoughtfully again soon and will then reply sometime during the weekend. Cheers, Michael

    Michael Altherr
     
  11. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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  12. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    Betreff: Re: Permaculture farms
    Datum: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 21:30:35 +0200
    Von: Michael Altherr
    Antwort an:
    An: Chris Warburton-Brown



    Dear Chris,

    Exactly, thanks a lot,

    with every good wish!

    Michael

    Michael Altherr

    Am 05.06.2013 18:42, schrieb Chris Warburton-Brown:
    > Hi Michael,
    >
    > You may find this article useful:
    > http://ideaa.eu/ecologia-servizi-ec...g-permaculture-design-to-survive-and-prosper/
    >
    > Good luck with your search!
    >
    > Best wishes,
    >
    > Chris
     
  13. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    We need yields!

    Contribution to self sustenance is not enough, as there are lots of people who sustain each and every one of us with their work, not being able to sustain themselves beyoung that.
     
  14. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    Michael, I would urge you to watch and listen to this presentation by Mark Shephard from Wisconsin (http://www.forestag.com/)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_t-sVVzF0
    He's got yields. Plenty of them. And he is restoring abused land in the process of obtaining these yields while his neighbours carry on growing GM maize and soyabeans, piling on chemical fertilizer, fighting drought, contaminating the groundwater ...
    For more images from his farm you could "find him on Facebook".

    Also check out this stunning conversion of a very large burnt out, eroding arable/cattle farm into a superbly productive landscape http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib-VrM4Qbvc - Sustainable agriculture in Argentina; they don't call it Permaculture but many of the strategies used are also used in Pc (rainwater harvesting swales, agroforestry, mixed cropping, livestock integration, maintaining areas for wildlife).
     
  15. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    >> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    >> Betreff: Fwd: Restoring the Earth
    >> Datum: Fri, 17 May 2013 06:50:10 +0200
    >> Von: Michael Altherr
    >> Antwort an:
    >> An:
    >>
    >>
    >> Salut Marco
    >>
    >> Hat mich gefreut, Dich mal wieder zu sehen, gestern bei C. Inema, mit Bill McKibben & Co.
    >>
    >> Kennt jemand von Euch bei Southpole Carbon oder C. Inema das chinesische Loess-Plateau-Restaurations-Projekt? Warst Du mal dort? Funktioniert das wirklich, wie John Liu es in der Anlage beschreibt?
    >>
    >> Gibt es einen Masterplan für ein Global Ecosystems Restoration Project? Das UNEP soll daran arbeiten, schreibt Liu.
    >>
    >> Beste Grüsse
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >>
    >> PS:
    >>
    >> Ist Dir das MZSG (www.mzsg.ch) bekannt? Schau Dir mal die "interactive mgmt. models" an.
    >>
    >> Michael Altherr
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    >> Betreff: Fwd: Restoring the Earth
    >> Datum: Sun, 12 May 2013 15:35:03 +0200
    >> Von: Michael Altherr
    >> Antwort an:
    >> An:
    >>
    >>
    >> Dear Prof. Malik
    >>
    >> Forwarded to you enclosed attachment and below links, with the hope that they might interest you enough to give the global momentum of ecosystems restoration an additional thrust with your cyber-tools and systems-savvy!
    >>
    >> It all begins and ends with biodiversity and agriculture, hence my interest in "permaculture" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture) - yet another promising concept, after enlightenment, salvation, sustainability and gross national happiness, and obviously equally difficult or impossible to realise, considering our progress over tens of thousands of years, since the "quaternary extinction" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event).
    >>
    >> With every good wish
    >>
    >> Michael Altherr
    >>
    >> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    >> Betreff: Restoring the Earth
    >> Datum: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:42:21 +0800
    >> Von: John Liu
    >> An: Michael Altherr
    >>
    >> Dear Michael Altherr:
    >> Thank you for your message.
    >> Could you be thinking of Daniel Hillel's book "Out of the Earth"?
    >> http://www.amazon.com/Out-Earth-Civ..._B001IXTU9U_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366363845&sr=1-1
    >> We are working quite hard to help more people to understand the potential of restoration and the importance of ecological function.
    >> I've attached an essay that discusses much of what I've been thinking about.
    >> The Global Partnership on Forest and Landscape Restoration (GPFLR) is fairly active.
    >> http://www.ideastransformlandscapes.org/
    >> The Ecosystem Return is a new foundation dedicated to promoting and catalyzing large-scale ecosystem restoration. This has a pragmatic approach and perhaps will be able to do more than the old development models. We shall see.
    >> http://www.rsm.nl/fileadmin/Images_NEW/General/RSM_Nature-Resilience_ISBN9789082008807.pdf
    >> There is much more of course.
    >> I hope this helps you.
    >> Best of luck,
    >> John
    >> John D Liu
    >> Director, Environmental Education Media Project (EEMP)
    >> Senior Research Fellow, IUCN
    >> Visiting Fellow, Faculty of Earth and Life Sciences, VU (Vrije University Amsterdam)
    >>
    >>
    >> Good morning John
    >>
    >> Are there or have there been any efforts being undertaken towards submitting the idea of a global permaculture-rollout to UN, EU, SAARC, etc.?
    >>
    >> How do we make it happen in time to ward of a global catastrophy?
    >>
    >> Which is the critical mass that needs to be moved, which are the critical leverage points to be employed, and who are the strategic partners around the globe?
    >>
    >> How can I be of assistance?
    >>
    >> Best regards,
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >>
    >> PS:
    >>
    >> Decades ago I read in a book about research in biblical places that arid regions in the Near East might possibly be greened again by planting tamarisks and other pioneer plants against stones placed for the purpose of protecting them from wind, storing warmth over night and gathering dew in the early morning hours.
    >>
    >> Why aren't these and the methods you are documenting employed everywhere in the mediterranian region, beginning in Spain and Greece with their many jobless, or the Canarian Islands and other places, in order to restore landscapes degraded over centuries and millennia?
    >>
    >> South America, namely Brazil and Argentina, with the support of WWF(!), presently are turned into pestizided monocultures for the production of animal fodder.
    >>
    >> Aren't there ways to stop this degradation and to restore and improve the ecological viability of these regions?
    >>
    >> Are you working with governments on the initiation of such large scale undertakings?
    >>
    >> Is there anywhere a compilation of technical documentations of restoration methods available on the internet, on your websites or elsewhere, with examples of respective project sites?
    >>
    >> I am searching for links of that kind and for possibilities to make myself useful for greening the planet and conserving its biodiversity.
    >>
    >> Thanks and kind regards
    >>
    >> Michael Altherr
    >>
    >> --
    >> Michael Altherr
    >>
    >>
    >>
     
  16. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    Betreff: Re: Fwd: Global Ecosystems Restoration Masterplan / Fwd: Restoring the Earth
    Datum: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:42:37 +0200
    Von: Michael Altherr
    Antwort an: [email protected]
    An: John Liu , [email protected]



    Dear John

    I'd be overjoyed if it worked to regreen these environments. And what are the agricultural yields to be expected from them?

    If they were promising enough, the entire Iberian peninsula and mediterreanian region could be restored applying Holzer's methods, improved with the experience gained. The jobless of Spain and Greece could be engaged to build dams into every promising dried up gully, settled in camps at their work sites, with their families, moving along with the progress of their work through their greening countries, spending their evenings partying and studying to be permaculturists and ecosystem restorators, applying their expertise globally, wherever needed.

    Cheers,

    Michael

    Michael Altherr
    Rousseaustrasse 28
    CH-8037 Zürich
    [email protected]
    +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel

    Am 07.06.2013 17:39, schrieb John Liu:
    > Dear Michael:
    > My Wife Kosima is German and we'll read this together.
    > We are now at TAMERA community and discussing these issues at the 3rd International Water Symposium.
    > Sepp Holtzer is not here but was last year and the design on the property is his. I must say the result is very impression. We'll see what happens over time but for now there is a good result.
    > Best,
    > John
    > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    > From: Michael Altherr
    > Date: Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:19 AM
    > Subject: Re: Global Ecosystems Restoration Masterplan / Fwd: Restoring the Earth
    > To: John Liu
    >
    > Dear John
    >
    > Thanks for these links and your work.
    >
    > Do you read German? I guess not, but here is a link anyway (www.jena-hof.at), of a project of Sepp Holzer with very negative feedback from its owner. As part of my search for information about the agricultural(!) yields of permaculture projects I had a lengthy email exchange with her, and have been sent some devastating evaluations from independant experts, for court hearings. I'm happy to hear that what Holzer did at Tamera met with more success - but you would also be aware that the Tamerans don't live of olives and that they are not sustaining themselves in terms of food, not to speak of their other needs - or are they?
    >
    > However, I have worked as project manager, communicator and fundraiser, on modest levels, so far, and if I can do anything to promote and help realise ecosystems restorations that would be a dream come true. I would first have to acquire funding for myself, and that's exactly where most projects I know stop: At self sustenance rather than the project's success. In other words: The self sustenance of the project participants becomes the primary objective of the project, regardless of its success or failure. That's milking problems, and that's what most or our efforts regarding sustainability actually are. We are milking the problems instead of solving them. Most carbon exchange projects offer beautiful examples, and yet, carbon exchange would be one of the ways to generate funding for ecosystems restoration. I'll try having a talk with some of the guys of MyClimate and SouthpoleCarbon sometime soon.
    >
    > Since two decades I have been thinking of ways to use the internet to stop ecodegradation and end poverty, always waiting for the big organisations to come up with something, but they didn't really, whatever I've seen falls short of the internet's full potential, so far. We need a global operations room, for everyone to provide feedback and raise awareness about their locality and its problems, often interlinked or caused by needs and greeds somewhere else, and for everyone to put in effort to help. And to promote the basic principles and patterns, methods and techniques of sustainability, in all areas of life, like rational land use, nonviolence, etc., for everyone to know. Jared Diamond and Frederic Vester have come up with sets of such principles.
    >
    > Got to get some sleep. Good night!
    >
    > Michael
    >
    > Michael Altherr
    > Rousseaustrasse 28
    > CH-8037 Zürich
    > [email protected]
    > +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    > +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
    > Am 05.06.2013 07:44, schrieb John Liu:
    >> Dear Michael:
    >> Thanks for this and staying in touch. Your thoughts on staying hopeful and fighting on while alive are something that I can understand. It is dangerous to give in to depression about the negative data that is all around.
    >> Now at 60 years I've come to believe that it is the competitive nature of the global economic system and the basis of money (GDP - production and consumption) that is the problem. We have taken the results of feudalism, slavery, imperialism, colonization and mercantile expansion following the industrial revolution and institutionalized them and imposed them on people all over the world. This has had the result of destroying native lands and cultures, creating deserts, devastating biodiversity, and making everyone slaves to economics. I've begun to see true freedom as not being chained to the economic system.
    >> I'm going tomorrow to the Tamera Community in Portugal. At the link below is a short film about what I learned about them last year.
    >> https://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJnT0NlZDVWRDhsYzhUQw
    >> I've also just come from the Gurukula Botanical Sanctuary in Kerala, South India. I just made this to share some thoughts with the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and Environment:
    >>
    >> https://www.yousendit.com/download/WFJWeFVheFgzMW5vS3NUQw
    >> I've also seen in the Andes the concept of "Vivir Bien" or "Living Well".
    >>
    >> https://www.yousendit.com/download/WUJiQ1Zpd0ltMExxYk1UQw
    >>
    >> Rather than feeling depressed about what I see I've decided to spend the rest of my life working to restore ecosystems on a planetary scale. Part of that is communications and part of that is founding and participating in communities that are working to heal human spirit and restore natural ecosystems all over the world.
    >> The Environmental Education Media Project (EEMP) which I direct needs lots of help. What skills do you have? Could you imagine helping us spread the messages?
    >> Best regards,
    >> John
    >> John D Liu
    >> Director, Environmental Education Media Project (EEMP)
    >> Senior Research Fellow, IUCN
    >> Visiting Fellow, Faculty of Earth and Life Sciences, VU (Vrije University Amsterdam)
    >> [email protected]
    >> +86-13911-565016
    >>
    >> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Michael Altherr wrote:
    >>
    >> Dear John Dennis Liu
    >>
    >> Thank you very much for your prompt and kind and interesting reply.
    >>
    >> The book I had in mind was Werner Keller's "Und die Bibel hat doch Recht": http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Und_die_Bibel_hat_doch_recht / http://www.amazon.de/Und-die-Bibel-doch-recht/dp/3625105152 / http://www.books.ch/detail/ISBN-9789650060169?gclid=CPHinuK0nbcCFUQd3godw3AAaA / https://www.google.ch/search?q=wern...&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&client=firefox-a. I just read it sold over 10 million copies since 1955 (in English or in total? Originally German it was translated into over 20 languages).
    >>
    >> Interestingly and to my great astonishment just before I found the book mentioned also on this website: http://permaculture-media-download.com/ - realising just a bit later that it's a Google ad, resulting from my search for the book a few days ago, in connection with my reply to you: If we could get ecosystems restoration and "permaculture" in the same manner onto everybody's screen and into everybody's mind and focus, we might stand a chance to preserve some of the world's health and beauty for generations to come. so, how can we bring Google on board?
    >>
    >> I hope that you will soon write and publish a book that becomes even more successful, about Global Ecosystems Restoration, serving as a masterplan for ecosystems restoration and poverty alleviation projects worldwide, describing in detail the technical and social principles for their success.
    >>
    >> I did not deem possible what you describe and am very sceptical (a friend, Helmut Lubbers, runs this website, and I tend to share his pessimism: www.ecoglobe.ch. Heinberg advised not to fall from despair and resignation into depression. I did and am coming out of it again, to enjoy life while it lasts and to fight to the end.) but wish to contribute towards ecosystems restoration since decades - never immagining that it could indeed be possible. I have worked in Cameroon and Bhutan, in the early 90ties, and what I saw on my few journeys everywhere was that increasing population pressure seemed to irreparably reduce the most beautiful and diverse landscapes, vegetations and habitats into degraded, barren places, or industrial monocultures.
    >>
    >> Cheers, with every good wish
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >> Michael Altherr
    >> Rousseaustrasse 28
    >> CH-8037 Zürich
    >> [email protected]
    >> +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    >> +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
    >>
    >>
     
  17. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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  18. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

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    Am 07.06.2013 09:07, schrieb Agroforestry Research Trust:
    >
    > Dear Michael
    >
    > I agree. However I would say that it is too easy for people to sink into despair and end up doing nothing or merely going along with the status quo, so I can understand why movements like Permaculture focus only on the positive.
    >
    > Best wishes
    >
    > Martin
    >
    >
    >
    > Martin Crawford
    >
    > Agroforestry Research Trust
    >
    > 46 Hunters Moon, Dartington, Totnes, TQ9 6JT
    >
    >
    >
    > e: [email protected]
    >
    > w: www.agroforestry.co.uk
    >
    > _______________________________________________________________
    >
    >
    >
    > OUT IN MAY: Food from your Forest Garden - a forest garden cookbook
    >
    >
    >
    > See also Creating a Forest Garden and Perennial Vegetables - previews at http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/publorders.html
    >
    >
    >
    > See a short video about our forest garden at http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/forgndg.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > From: Michael Altherr [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: 06 June 2013 23:20
    > To: Agroforestry Research Trust
    > Subject: Re: Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Martin
    >
    > Thanks. That's my own unqualified impression too, just adding up trends and data, my little experience as a gardener, and what I have seen of the world and of people and of myself so far, during the 47 years of my life, in Switzerland, Cameroon, Bhutan, Nepal, India, Malaysia, New York, Malta, Scandinavia, the Mediterranian Region, the Canary Isands and the few other places where I have lived or that I visited: Ecodegradation wherever we look, already at comparably moderate population levels, in rich and poor countries alike, since thousands of years already. Helmut Lubbers runs www.ecoglobe.ch, and I tend to share his pessimism - yet we must do our utmost to mitigate impending catastrophy for as long as possible. The permaculture movement, for the sake of marketing, tends to often belittle the problems we, respectively our descendants are facing, romanticising a living from the land utopy. We live of oil, mainly, and even so, without yet having to fully substitute oil with biomass, which is a hopeles endeavour anyway, our pressure on our natural life base and our fellow beings is far too high. We could theoretically and maybe potentially do better, but not at 7 or even 10 billion, if we couldn't at a few millions. Our insights are coming too late and to only a few, while billions cannot even afford to study them in their struggle to survive, and billions don't care.
    >
    > Cheers to life, anyway!
    >
    > Michael
    >
    > Am 06.06.2013 09:02, schrieb Agroforestry Research Trust:
    >
    > Dear Michael
    >
    > My view is that neither forest gardens, Permaculture, organic farming or conventional farming can sustainably produce enough food for 7 billion people. That population is completely unsustainable.
    >
    >
    >
    > You can post our exchange if you want.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    >
    >
    > Martin Crawford
    >
    > Agroforestry Research Trust
    >
    > 46 Hunters Moon, Dartington, Totnes, TQ9 6JT
    >
    >
    >
    > e: [email protected]
    >
    > w: www.agroforestry.co.uk
    >
    > _______________________________________________________________
    >
    >
    >
    > OUT IN MAY: Food from your Forest Garden - a forest garden cookbook
    >
    >
    >
    > See also Creating a Forest Garden and Perennial Vegetables - previews at http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/publorders.html
    >
    >
    >
    > See a short video about our forest garden at http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/forgndg.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > From: Michael Altherr [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: 04 June 2013 23:06
    > To: Agroforestry Research Trust
    > Subject: Re: Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Martin
    >
    > Thank you very much for your kind and prompt reply.
    >
    > Growing food for a family or small community is great, but how to sustainably grow food for the people who produce our clothes, furnitures, cars, computers, tools, etc? And how to sustainably produce food for the billions of us living in towns, without land of their own, whose "balcony and rooftop permaculture gardens" aren't enough to sustain them?
    >
    > If they all went out of town to seek a plot of land for for living and growing food, would they all find one? And how much space would then still be left for wildlife?
    >
    > Best regards
    >
    > Michael
    >
    > PS:
    > I have opened a respective thread in this interesting forum: http://forums.permaculturenews.org/...and-Staple-Crops-Anywhere&p=103808#post103808. Do I have your permission to post our exchange there?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Michael Altherr
    >
    > Rousseaustrasse 28
    >
    > CH-8037 Zürich
    >
    > [email protected]
    >
    > +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    >
    > +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
    >
    > Am 03.06.2013 15:40, schrieb Agroforestry Research Trust:
    >
    > Dear Michael
    >
    > I do not call what I do Permaculture!
    >
    > In terms of forest gardens, nearly all are not commercial nor do they ever try to be commercial. These systems are much better suited to growing food for a family or small community. They are usually too complex to be commercial (economically). However do not forget that commercial economics is a man-made discipline and does not relate very well to the real ecological world. If farming/growing systems are to be commercially economic now, they must usually make many ecological compromises. If systems are ecologically sound then they usually do not make commercial economic sense.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    >
    >
    > Martin Crawford
    >
    > Agroforestry Research Trust
    >
    > 46 Hunters Moon, Dartington, Totnes, TQ9 6JT
    >
    >
    >
    > e: [email protected]
    >
    > w: www.agroforestry.co.uk
    >
    > _______________________________________________________________
    >
    >
    >
    > OUT IN MAY: Food from your Forest Garden - a forest garden cookbook
    >
    >
    >
    > See also Creating a Forest Garden and Perennial Vegetables - previews at http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/publorders.html
    >
    >
    >
    > See a short video about our forest garden at http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/forgndg.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > From: Michael Altherr [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: 02 June 2013 13:46
    > To: [email protected]
    > Subject: Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. Crawford
    >
    > I am fervently looking for permaculture projects that are sustained not through public interest, tourism, courses and councelling but from their own harvests, also of niche products but preferably also of staple crops.
    >
    > If you can and wish to let me know their contact data, I will then further investigate and do my very best to spread word about it amongst places and people in a position to further research and promote and apply their methods.
    >
    > Thanking you, with kind regards,
    >
    > Michael Altherr
    >
    >
    > PS:
    >
    > So far, sadly, it looks as if permaculture was a marketing and feelgood hype rather than a sustainable agricultural production system capable of feeding the masses and preserving the planet: I simply don't get any answers from any permaculture adresses contacted with this inquiry. When I contact permaculturists regarding courses or consultations, however, I get immediate replies, so it appears to me that the core competence of permaculturists are talking and hobby gardening, not agriculture or even permaculture.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Michael Altherr
    >
    > Rousseaustrasse 28
    >
    > CH-8037 Zürich
    >
    > [email protected]
    >
    > +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    >
    > +41-(0)44-271 11 20 T
    >
    >
     
  19. M1ch23l

    M1ch23l Junior Member

    Joined:
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    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    Betreff: Fwd: Fwd: Our Dilemma - Testicle Sized / Re: Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops Anywhere?
    Datum: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 18:09:43 +0200
    Von: Michael Altherr
    Antwort an: [email protected]
    An: [email protected]


    Dear Mr. Héctor Laurence
    With thanks and every good wish, and to permaculture!

    Michael Altherr

    Michael Altherr
    Rousseaustrasse 28
    CH-8037 Zürich
    [email protected]
    +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel



    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
    Betreff: Our Dilemma - Testicle Sized / Re: Profitable Permaculture Harvests of Niche Products and Staple Crops Anywhere?
    Datum: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 16:14:42 +0200
    Von: Michael Altherr
    Antwort an: [email protected]



    Dear Martin; Dear All

    Yes, very true, Martin, it's understandable. "Permaculture" is a good activation therapy and a beautiful and sensible, or rather "the" right approach to all aspects of life and their improvement. And its entertainment value is considerable, potentiated by its meaningfulness. Yet, hunger is the worst disease, the Buddha said, already when population was a small fraction of today's, and our hunger apparently is too big for mother Earth, and our intelligence too limited. Einstein is often said to have said that a problem cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness at which it was created. But can we, effectively, raise the consciousness of our species of sapient idiots, shrink our stomachs, decrease our needs and increase our assimilation powers? How to increase our photosynthetic capacity, in order not to have to eat away and displace the planet's biodiversity any longer?

    Paradise was a garden: Living beauty surrounding us can decrease (other) material needs. If we have to starve or/and let others starve then it's more pleasant to do so in a garden. Fasting to death is the highest ideal of the Jains. I've had more than my share of food and fun: Will I be able to just stop eating and vanish with dignity? Ashoka's, the great Buddhist emperor's (an oxymoron) grandfather did it. Yet, he did so after a rather full life, I assume, and not as a child or a teenager, or as a parent with children. I too prefer to focus on the positive - but the meeting of two optimists evokes pessimism (Willi Ritschard), as their solutions tend to be illusory beyound common measure. The good thing about them is that if they care enough they often still believe in doing something:

    It's a beautiful idea that humans could upgrade and biodiversify the ecosystems they inhabit. There are examples where that was achieved on a modest level, but life in the village probably was repressive and paltry more often than romantic and abundant, and the wealth of oil only recently offered relative wealth and freedom to many - even if not in our heads, necessarily: Evolution takes time that we don't have. Gaia's destiny is to have her flesh eaten from her bones by her own children - and ours to eat eachother and our mother. That's the price she pays for having seen herself through our eyes from outer space, for the first time in her life, as Lovelock has expressed it poetically and consoling, and the price we pay for being here and being dumb and greedy.

    How, with all the knowledge we have today, can we maintain and increase our freedom, shrink our population, further alleviate poverty and ignorance, while increasing or at least preserving live and its diversity, on a global scale, turning the world into an "edible forest garden" (http://www.ted.com/talks/pam_warhur...m_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email) - after degradation and extermination were the overwhelming trend for thousands of years, already before the advent of agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event), and after entering the "Age of Declines"?

    There is the thought that it could just be our greater numbers that might enable us to live on Earth in a better way (http://www.peterrussell.com/GB/globalbrain.php). I haven't read his book (yet?): Peter Russel also builds up on Lovelock's Gaia concept, yet I assume Lovelock would dismiss Russel's high hopes. Ironically, and probably contrary to the author's intended message, the cover of Russel's book depicted on his website already shows with unfailing clarity: Men is too big and heavy a burden for its originator planet's life systems, it appears. But Gaia is an old lady, Lovelock says, and recommends to enjoy life while we can. And the best way doing this is to keep trying to live in a better way, to increase life, diversity and beauty, to mitigate suffering, alleviate poverty, increase consciousness and love, to the last moment.

    Permaculturists know: The joy of eating is surpassed by the joy of planting - but eating is a more immediately felt need, is easier and faster than planting, except genitally: That's our dilemma in its entirety in a nutshell, or testicle sized, respectively.

    Even those preferring to loot and plunder, rob and kill, or let die, also for the sake and profit of all of us living in rich countries, would have an interest in thriving hunting grounds, so let them join and finance the effort to give back to the world what they are taking from it, to increase the benefits for all: www.glencorexstrata.com.

    The internet still offers yet unused potential for networking, spreading and implementing knowledge about life supporting approaches, principles and patterns, methods and techniques, as shown by James Lovelock, David Attenborough, Frederic Vester, Christopher Alexander, Jared Diamond, Richard Heinberg, Mark Lynas, Safran Foer, Tristram Stuart and many others:

    If ecosystems really can be protected - can they be, really, effectively? (www.karlammann.com) - and even restored (www.eemp.org / www.tamera.org / ...), then let's work towards doing it on a global scale, without loosing time, and let's unite forces everywhere, creating platforms where good examples are promoted and their experience shared (www.permaculturenews.org), where problems and solutions are highlighted (https://www.ifama.org/events/conferences/2006/cmsdocs/BrookinsSpeech.pdf ? / http://www.geofflawton.com/sq/26801-absolute-in-abundance) and were perpetrators and problem solvers are named and supported (www.seppholzer.at: They look green and biodiverse, but are there also considerable edible yields of these projects, in agricultural terms, the term "permaculture" meaning "permanent agriculture", and agriculture meaning the feeding of plenty?), or shamed, respectively (Random example, Héctor Laurence? Deforestation, monoculturisation and desertification in the name of nature conservation and philanthropy? http://www.vidasilvestre.org.ar/conocenos2/nuestro_equipo/ / http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Hector-Laurence/22984059 A worthy client for Geoff Lawton and Sepp Holzer? Philipp Gehri of WWF Switzerland will shortly be calling Héctor Laurence, his WWF buddy in Argentina, to inquire about motivation, extent of dammage done and profits pocketed, and to suggest intensified cooperation with biodiversification and preservation experts.).

    One of the most important and technically - but not politically - simplest things to do, in order to preserve top soil and land area for food production and biodiversity, and to save on infrastructure and maintenance, is to stop building single family houses. And to stop pseudo solutions and corruption, like the WWF's - a fraudulent organisation from its very beginnings, founded and funded by royals, dictators, agrobusiness and other multinationals for their greenwashing, for "eco-tourism", and to keep their hunting reserves clear of other people? - support of the large scale destruction of vast areas ot the planet with their entire biodiversity, for the production of so called "responsible and sustainable" soy and palmoil, in Argentina, Indonesia and elsewhere (For verification use Google and Google Earth and contact the witnesses: www.wilfried-huismann.de / http://www.wilfried-huismann.de/pakt-mit-dem-panda.html / http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Pakt_mit_dem_Panda / http://www.wilfried-huismann.de/sachbuecher.html), or of so called "biological and sustainable" aquaculture (http://www.wilfried-huismann.de/lachsfieber.html), etc.

    Cheers to Permaculture! It's not easy but its the only way.

    Michael

    Michael Altherr
    Rousseaustrasse 28
    CH-8037 Zürich
    [email protected]
    +41-(0)78-824 43 94 Mobile
    +41-(0)44-271 11 20 Tel
     
  20. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    warm temperate - some frost
    As other have said - I would be much more comfortable talking with you if I knew a little more about you and what you hoped to use any information for. I love encouraging enthuastic criticism of the raft that is Permaculture but being constructive is important.
     

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