1. kerrip

    kerrip Junior Member

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    Hi all

    I would like to know who here is actually living OFF GRID completely? We are in the process of buying a property that is not connected to any services. We will ample water supply but the most efficient way of getting power is very challenging to research. Given the fact that we do not want to spend too much money but would still like to run a refrigerator, hopefully a freezer too, the computers, tv and lights. The property has a small solar system backed up by a small generator at the moment. Until we get to living there we aren't sure how much is enough and what exactly we will be getting, hence the research.

    So far we think that battery storage and output seems to more important in some ways than the actual charging of the batteries which can be achieved with the generator and solar back up. This isn't going to be the most efficieint and we think that adding some wind generation could be the go.

    We have a feeling that just using stand alone solar is not a very good option, given the life span of the panels, not to mention the initial cost of setting up a solar exclusive system.

    Anyway what are you doing at your place?

    Kerri
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    Solar/generator output and battery storage are important (do you know what they are currently? You should be able to calculate the panel size and battery size), but only in relation to what you use. How much computer, tv and light time will you need? How many lights? Best to do an energy audit - there's plenty of online lists. You want to include EVERYTHING that you use power for - it's usually a bigger list than the one you wrote above.

    What country do you live in? What's your climate like? How far from town?

    If you're happy with a generator, then you're doing trips to town for fuel. In that case consider lpg for the fridge and/or freezer, or a 2way (12V) or even 3way (240V).

    I've lived completely off grid at times (not at the moment). It really depends alot on your philosophy. If you can powerdown your life then solar living is easily set up, not too expensive and easy to maintain. If you want to convert an energy intensive life to offgrid, then it's expensive, and you need specialist knowledge to set up and maintain.

    For instance, in a powerdown set up, on a simple 12V solar and battery system, you can do things like use/build passsive cooling systems for food, so that you have a much smaller fridge (or even just a freezer) and so the draw on the 12V is much less, which means less expense and maintenance and repair over time.

    Why do you think stand alone solar is not a good option? Is it the solely the expense of replacing worn parts?

    The decisions I'm making are to put money into heating and cooking that will last my lifetime (a really good woodstove with oven, passive cooling systems), and to use solar and gas in the meantime while it is still easily available and I'm setting up. I'll also choose solar over the medium term as the main source of electricity. I'm thinking of not using anything on the solar that will need a constant draw (and so extending the life of the system). I use 12V, because it's more efficient generally.
     
  3. kerrip

    kerrip Junior Member

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    Hi Pebble

    Thanks for the reply. The property is in Gippsland, Victoria and is about 20 or 25 minutes drive to Sale. It isn't currently connected to Electricity,the closest pole is probably about a kilometre away so it would cost way too much to get it connected at the moment, and besides we want to power down our lives anyway. We are going from living in the perfect palace to living in the bush. It has been something we have wanted to do for ages and now it is do or die time. We plan on doing all the fuel pickups when we go in to get groceries so can cut down on travelling expenses.

    We have looked into the LPG fridges and freezes and found a couple of good options if we have to. But we thought that if they had issues or run out of gas then we have no back up. With 12v/240v fridges they can be switched over to the generator if we need to.

    We are going to use LPG for cooking in the summer and the instantaneous gas hot water (which we hope to change over to solar hot water) In the winter we plan on using wood for heating and cooking. We have plenty of wood on the block.

    The current system is only a bank of 4 BP solar 80w panels. There is a bank of 6 yuasa deep cell 2v in serious, squalling 12 volt. There is a 6 year old yamaha generator, which we think will need upgrading. The inverter is 800 watt, non sine, which we are also going to upgrade to a higher wattage to allow for expansion into wind turbine charging and the addition of more panels over time..

    My husband is a fully licensed gas plumber and has some extensive experience in refrigeration, we have experienced poor performance with the LPG gas fridges while camping due to mainly the exceptionally high operating temperature environment within Australia that most of these fridges here have to deal with.

    As far as we know near all LPG powered refrigeration is based on the evaporation principal using ammonia, as I just said this type of system in Australia does have its limitations due to the heat. A question... Have you had an LPG fridge and what are the experiences you have had with them. What type of fridge was it?

    Does any of this make sense to you? I am trying to explain the best that I can, but am obviously looking for some real understanding of the whole thing.



    This is why we are leaning heavily towards specifically manufactured, high efficiency, 12/240v equipment even knowing that this may cause us to have to use the generator periodically.

    As far as natural cooling systems for food storage, here in Australia again with the constant high temperatures, we feel that maintaining any practical natural cooling food storage system would not really be feasible, unless somebody out there has had experience with this type of thing in a similar environment, in which case we would be more than happy to hear back from them.
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    Yes, that all makes sense :)

    I've not used an lpg fridge myself. I don't bother having a fridge when I'm off grid, but will look at getting a small freezer probably. We don't have the high heat that you do so I haven't heard of that problem from the people I know with gas fridges.

    But I'll also look at other ways of preserving food that don't require continuous power use.

    People have eaten well in very hot climates without fridges for thousands of years ;-) There's some threads already where this has been discussed, including links to technical solutions ranging from very low tech to very high tech. Much of our food stays fresh and edible if kept cool (rather than frigid). There are some exceptions, but in general frigid food is a modern acquired taste not a necessity for safety and pleasure. Fridges are easier in some ways, but I think that's because we haven't had enough modern passive design yet, so people are still figuring out what works best. Here's a couple of starting points:

    https://permaculturetokyo.blogspot.com/2006/11/passive-cooling.html

    https://forums.permaculture.org.au/showthread.php?302-refridgeration-without-power&highlight=fridge

    I lived with someone who ran a freezer on 4 or so hours a day of generator power (even in summer, but a NZ summer). It was a chest freezer, and the trick was to keep it full (bottles of water etc) so that it held its coolness. The top of the freezer operated more like a fridge, but the bottom was frozen. Probably more inefficient than running the gennie longer, but needs must. It was in the shade with cooler air flow. Insulating it would have helped I think (your husband would know more about that), as would combining it with other passive cooling techniques. Just putting ideas out there, so you know we don't actually have to be as dependent on electricity as we think.

    I guess what I am saying is look for multiple solutions in lateral ways. The issue isn't how do I run a fridge offgrid? The issue is how do I manage my food offgrid? You'll get more solutions from asking the second question than the first.


    320W solar output is actually not bad. My panel is probably only 80. I run lights, laptop, tv, stereo, water pump, phone charger on that easily in the summer. Haven't done that in the winter but it is possible if careful. So 320 sounds alot to me ;-)

    Don't worry too much about how daunting it can seem. Just keep doing your research and it will fall into place. As you research, your thinking will change, new ideas will appear, your confidence will build etc. I found it hard to start with to make sense of everything, but it's much easier now (am still learning).
     
  5. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
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    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day kerri,

    i don't have direct experience but have heard much from others who do.

    when we went rural we opted out of gas as the only bottled gas for homes is butane gas which is a fuel gas so therefore expensive to use compared to natural gas.

    you could consider converting fridges/freezers and washing machines to 12 volt, this is a method deployed by many on stand alone power. others have opted to buy more expensive but more efficient fridges/freezers. one person runs an esky for daily use fridge items to keep to absolute minimum the opening of fridges/freezers through the day. and turns off all standby units.

    and as always take a good hard look at running dual wind/solar. the ones i know on stand alone also have something like a 3kva diesel gen' set for those times when solar is clouded out.

    dont skimp on batteries. now lots of stuff can be bought second hand especially batteries saving oodles of money, look for second hand forklift batteries they are usually tested to at least 80%, other sources of second hand batteries telstra used t hav some from bush exchanges, and one bloke sourced a second hand submarine battery his reckoning it will never wear out, has it in his ouse in the entrance way under a sitting bench. second hand panels also to kick off with, another thing talked of is have the big users nearer the source. wind generators can be bought second hand, new ones not terribly expensive but you can make you own out of truck or bus alternators. lots of links to help with diy units. might even have some links on our site?

    something else look for the site dealing with evaporative type cooling units use water and hay and the evaporation of the water caused cooling, not sure what they call it but have seen it in portable cane basket units and also brick/block rooms.

    len
     
  7. Rob Windt

    Rob Windt Junior Member

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    G'day Kerri, since you have plenty of wood I would suggest a larger battery bank and generator, your 4 panels will cover the basics and a decent battery bank will cut down generator run time.
    The Yuasa's are good, try to avoid the bargain basement rubbish as we "get what we pay for"
    Get the most efficient freezer you can and consider a coolgardie safe or esky for daily stuff like milk and butter

    Your partner sounds like a handy fella and could build something along this line https://nakedmechanic.blogspot.com/search/label/multi%20function%20platform I have come to a stop on this due to lack of funds for a generator head (it's designed for 10 - 20 Kva) you could make me an offer to finish and set it up for you, I'm in Wonthaggi which is not that far away.
    Have just received 3 months notice to vacate my workshop (LPG conversions, mechanical repairs) and will now concentrate on woodgas as a relatively cheap, lo-tech and doable alternative for those with access to a reliable biomass supply

    This one is approaching completion and will be available for demonstrations in March https://nakedmechanic.blogspot.com/search/label/woodgas%20ute

    Cheers
    Rob
    https://nakedmechanic.blogspot.com/
     
  8. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    Hi Kerri
    Some good tips already , friends of ours have a normal house size fridge/freezer , gas/12v/240v in their motorhome (40ft Bus) they live in the mallee so get extreme conditions to say the least the fridge works really well , they run on gas most of the time , i cant remember the brand but i doubt that makes much difference these days . Most appliances used in modern motorhomes are low power use and ideal for your situation . We lost power for 3 weeks after a big fire a few years ago and used the chest freezer as a fridge freezer as described above on minimal generator time we used a folded woolen single doona to seperate the frozen from the top baskets and i was amazed how well it worked , you could impove on this with with foam slabs to keep the cold down .Friends nearby are totally off grid he is an electican which helps they did the solar / genset for years but he says since installing a wind generator the whole job has got much easier so probably good advice there .Wood Gas producer is also good idea seen one set up with a old single cylinder long stroke motor off a shearing plant hooked to a 240 generator a few blocks of wood would run it for hours .
    Regards Terra
     
  9. greenfarmers

    greenfarmers Junior Member

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    Hi Kerry,

    We have lived completely off-grid for almost two years, with two kids, four lap tops, some tv use and a 12v fridge. We've come to the same conclusion - get the battery bank set up first, then add panels. We still only have two 64-w uni-solar panels and three 12v 98amp batteries - very light on, but we're saving for the big battery bank, now we have figured it out better. The batteries we have will form a separate secondary bank, once all is up and running.

    We run 12v lights, phone chargers, ipod/tivoli pal music system (with it's own recharging battery) etc and the (120L?) Trailblaza chest fridge (awesome beast with big 125mm walls). Apple doesn't make a 12v magsafe power lead, so we use a small 180w inverter and charge two computers at once. That little inverter powered the washing machine too for a while, but for some reason it stopped doing so, so that became a generator job, until the w.machine computer blew up -- so beware of modern washing machines on generators or anything but a pure sine inverter. Old twin tubs can be good though.

    In a nut shell, as pebble said, you can live simply with very little power, but if you want the same power as you had in the city it might be expensive. We love being primarily on 12v and would never consider connecting to the grid. We had been hoping to use the gov's 50% stand alone rebate but it was scrapped, so now it's a slow journey. Might be better anyway, because our combined 12/240v system will be significantly more refined than an off-the shelf system from some company. Doing it yourself, learning slowly also means you know your system intimately, you can maintain it yourself and you can live within it's limitations (those you choose by the size of your battery, panels and inverter).

    We wouldn't have it any other way -- even if it means some rainy days there is no computer time -- good luck,

    Heidi
     
  10. stevefarmboy

    stevefarmboy Junior Member

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    As far as living off the grid goes ..I have a question that I am having trouble getting a straight answer to... and that Kerri may be interested in as well .. :)

    Is it better for any reason to use batteries in any particular configuration?
    Is 6 X 2V batteries better than one good 12 V one ..?
    I have heard of people using 6 X 2V .... 2 X 6V .... and 12V only ones ... to achieve the 12 volts ...
    All a bit mind rattling really ... LOL

    anyone have a few clues about the differences or the benefits of any of the above configurations ..

    How many and what size do you use ?
     
  11. kerrip

    kerrip Junior Member

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    Pebble thanks for the linds and info. I agree that there are other ways to achieve some good results. I am thinking of trying out the zeer pots, they seem awesome, don't they. I also think that building one of those cool cupboards could be a really interesting exercise. Keeping produce in there should be perfect. Yes it does seem to be of a suck it and see thing.

    Len, the lpg is as you say expensive compared to natural and if we can get away without depending on it for other than the stove and hot water then I think we'll be doing well. You have given us lots of really good tips and I thank you for that. I reckon we'll have an esky on the go, at least at first. I have heard that you can get good ones now, where they claim the ice will last about 2 weeks. That could be a good option, but it will be about $100 so we need to weigh it all up.

    Rob, you are an inventor extradonaire, and I take my hat off to you, for sure. I'd love to help you out, but I don't think our budget willl run to a 10-20 kva generator. It would be great if we could get one that big, but I think we'll be getting a 3.5kva. I'd love to come and check out what you are up to and we might just pop in on you one day. Your woodgas stuff sounds amazing.

    Terra, your idea of using the freezer as a fridge as well sounds great and thanks for the tips about the doona etc. I think we will definately be getting the wind turbine to help charge the batteries. That seems to make the most sense in the long run, given that you can't rely on 12 hours of sun, 7 days a week, 356 days a year, but more often than not a breeze will be kicking around. That woodgas idea is intriguing isn't it. Rob seems to be the man to find out more about that and we'll check him out too.

    Heidi, where abouts do you live? Yes getting the batteries increased seems to be the way to go and then put the wind turbine up to help charge them and buy 12 v appliances and a good sine compliant generator sounds like the go. Then if needs be, increase the solar panels. I think you are amazing that you are doing this with the 2 kids. We will only be the 2 of us so if you can do it then we should be able to too. It is a little bit daunting, but mostly challenging and I am getting really excited. What sort of tv do run? We are thinking of a getting a new LED becaiuse they run low wattage and I saw on the news the other day that they are plummeting in price. Thanks for the heads up about the washing machine. I was congratulating myself that the one we have is water efficient and never gave the computer side of things a thought. We will need the new generator to run it because I can't see our budget stretching to a new one quite yet. Thank you very much for your input.

    Great question Steve. I hope someone knows the answer.

    Thanks everyone for your help. I'm sure I'll have more questions and I reckon you guys are perfect for getting straight answers from, unlike the retailers of any of the systems and appliances, who all want you to upgrade to something that will cost the national debt.

    Have a great day.

    Kerri
     
  12. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    hello,

    those 2v batteries have as '' all their reason for being " ................................................storage..........................amp hours.

    those 2v batteries are not ' full of stuff to make them 12v batteries '...therefore.......more storage........................amp hours.

    the only reason to build 12 v out of a series of 6 x 2v is....................more...................storage..........................amp hours.


    telstra run all their remote DC locations on banks of 2v batteries............big heavy suckers.

    deep cycle is the go, a 24 v system is fundamental because you can reticulate 12 v about the length of a car before voltage drop off starts messing with things.
    if you push 24 v you get the length of a truck or bus to reticulate it before the same shit happens.

    so if you want low voltage DC in a house;;;; 12v is not an option;;;;;;viz length of cable runs.

    inverting 24 v is easy and fairly cheap......just to get a decent voltage to your house from your 'power shed' ( this is external - not 'in'your earthship man....
    transform it down to 24vDC for low voltage runs, present it at the odd 24ov power point for more options........but aim for inverting all the dc within your power shed to 240 ac for reliable delivery to your house switch box and transform down.

    that is my take on it,
    cheers
     
  13. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    One other part of the system is the charge regulator - try to get a good one (plasmatronics, etc) i have bought cheap ones off the internet and they don't always fully charge the batteries and even 1/2 melted a 200A gel battery i was charging up for a trip (not happy jan!!!).

    I can understand that Kimbo's idea of inverting the power up at the power shed and then back to 24v at the house( if you need to) sounds a bit extreme but it's how the grid works - generator-step up voltage for transmission- back down to 240/440 at the end of your street. If it's more than 15m or so to your power shed then it's probably the best way to go.
    Hope this site helps
    https://www.energymatters.com.au/climate-data/cable-sizing-calculator.php
     
  14. petershaw

    petershaw Junior Member

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    What a great thread.....I think its one of the most informative I've read!!
     
  15. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    Kimbo,

    It's not that expensive to have heavy wiring and it's very useful because there are so many appliances which run on on 12v.

    Our house has 12v sockets all over the place for Wifi, car stereo, television, internet, small battery charging, clocks, radio, laptops...

    We rarely use inverters and when we do we try to use the ones which use the least energy to do the job.

    if you plan the panels to be as close as possible to the controller and batteries (Same as your hot water system) then unless your house is enormous you don't lose a lot of energy.
     
  16. stevefarmboy

    stevefarmboy Junior Member

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    Well I am getting my head around it now thank god ..lol thanks guys ..
    What I did find was this ripper website that has the tools set from hell to help calculate just about everything ...

    gooo take a peek if this power setup and generation thing is rattling your head ..
    https://www.freesunpower.com/system_sizing.php#startGrn

    I am still a bit lost as far as the best fridge to purchase that will give the best efficiency and result at the lowest cost and power consumption ...
    Info is so conflicting and varied on this subject alone , that I am getting another one of my migraines ...LOL

    Gas ... (cost of the gas ) ( how good are they ? ) ( is the ammonia based systems really as good as the refrigerated types? )
    12 VOLT .... ( are they better than a super efficient 240 one )
    240 VOLT.... ( is the extra power needed to run one of these worth it considering they defiantly work the best ( they do the best job )


    Questions questions questions .... lol .... I am getting there slowly ...

    I am still not quite up with the real realities of running a large bank of 2 volt commercial batteries or a smaller bank of 6 volt and the effects that either setup has on total storage hours available given any set example or AH s required ...

    but again... I am hell bent on finding out what would be the optimum design for our new setup ...

    thanks again to everyone for your input ..
     
  17. stevefarmboy

    stevefarmboy Junior Member

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    Question ... for the electrically minded ...
    What is the best wiring to run thoughout the house?... meaning , can you run 12V though normal 10 amp 240V wiring without any adverse effects ..?
    Power drop using 12V over lets say 10 meters using heavier wiring ?( normal 240 10AMP wire ) does it cause any extra power to be wasted or does the wire size over all have no effect on power use , as long as it is big enough ..?
     
  18. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    hardworkinghippy,

    i thought you were a chick man, nice profile pick!!!

    i'm hip to what you are proposing; dam fat copper retiicked around a house from batteries to end point......and fused.....all at 12v level........and no serious voltage drops.
    if,,,and i am meaning 'if'....this is kosher then i'm down shitloads of dollars backing the wrong adivce and dodgy reason..

    er, i'm not going to just 'accept this' or else i'll get depressed.....HWH,,,,frame all of what i say in the context of 'kimbo defending his reasoning'.....just.

    my dc power guy says dc fuses for a dwelling are fat suckers,,,he says when a car fuse melts, you can stop the car,,,,when it does that in your house, your house can burn down....so house dc fuses are a fat hunk of brass with enough terminal clearance to deter a dc spark....dc sparks kind of stretch out to stupid lengths ( no alternating flow to pull them back ) this is the shit that makes a person stick to the electrics in those old movies.

    so the dc guy first gives me the logic of a 12v cable run and the size of cable you would need to pull off a half decent distance with something to show at the other end....voltage drop.
    he runs me through an energy audit with having to forcibly extract every amp hour / watts from my tightly clenched heart......we wanted to run dick with shit......

    but still i could not avoid 24 v for my distances (one miserable two story cave), max 30m !! thirty. cable runs.

    which gets us down to 30m is not far, bit bigger than a truck?,,,,up and down walls,,,from bats,,,fuses,,,switches,,,meter?....each bit of interruption adds to the drop ( i know u know )

    i am getting depressed,,,,,I have spent $3,500 on panels, 2 X 4 batteries $1,600, controller $300 and it just goes on........oh yeah $2,400 for a 2600w true sine wave inverter....

    i have not paid a power bill for seven years but we still use dick with shit........maybe 90 amp hours per day IN,,,,,maybe,,,,70 is bankable,,,,,
    i need 2 more panels and another set of bats in parallel.....the tank is two small with 2 more panels, will overflow daily and waste.
    this is expensive shit and prohibitive unless you are rich or know your dc power systems,,,,
    which i dont'.

    steve, it is horrible this sink or swim shit no?
    cheers,
    kimbo
     
  19. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    sorry spring, missed you up there;
    half melted your 200 ah gelster!!! son of a bitch....not happy indeed jan!

    controllers are dam important and i'm with spring on the quality factor........i don't know if i'm happy with plasmatronics or not.....i have no basis for comparison......it is what i have ....

    these little suckers have modified ways of charging your batteries; they boost, and float and pulse charge, they equalise etc..........or they are supposed to....who knows...who checks.

    you're not supposed to add shit like chemicals or powders............your not supposed to because it fks your battery, or your not supposed to because that could make your battery last twice as long...............i did.........i do.....spring? hwh?

    epsom salts...magnesium sulphate....teaspoon per cell........happy battery?

    cheers,
     
  20. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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