NFT planting distance

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Ryan, Apr 23, 2006.

  1. Ryan

    Ryan Junior Member

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    Hello, I am back to get more advice from this incredible crafty online community(common unity). BTW I appreciate the knowledge that is stockpiled here and I enjoy checking in daily to see what you are all up to.

    Anyway, I have finally started to plant the fruit trees in our food forest. :D Now I am curious, what is a good distance between fruit trees and NFT's. So far I have an elaeagnus sp. and a cassia sp. Is albizia julibrissin called mimosa? If so, I have that, though hesistant to plant but I think it can work if I prune hard before seed set. Any other NFT suggestions for subtropics? The fruit trees are; apple, peach, plum, fig, citrus, guava, mulberry, pomegranite. How often should the NFT's be pruned? Also what are good trees to plant vines like passionfruit and grapes next to? I was thinking that the mimosa would be a good candidate. since it has a thin, open canopy. Thanks for the help, Ryan
    Building a Guilding
     
  2. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    This question always bring a smile to my face.
    When I was working at Tagari under/alongside Geoff Lawton, the guy who was given responsibility for "food forest extension", a great bloke called Paul Kelly, used to wonder about this question a lot. Over at Bill's food forest, there were countless examples of fruit trees and legume trees planted almost in the same hole. One example that comes to mind was an avocado and an ice cream bean. Both were about 30 foot tall, and one or the other always seemed to have fruit on it... On paper you would say that the inge would compete with the avo, but in reality there seemed to be some kind of symbiosis going on.
    Then Bill turned up for a visit and during one of his pontifications on the verandah at the teahouse he poopoohed the idea of growing legumes too close to fruit trees, saying that they should be grown out side the dripline, and the mulch carried to the fruit tree. I can still remember the excruciated, noncomprehending expression on Paul's face...
    Around here, some Permies have a thing where they are putting pidgeon peas in a circle about six feet out from the target species, and then a circle of gliricidia about 10 feet out from that... If you keep the legumes pruned back so that they aren't smothering your fruit tree, then the roots that die back should be giving lots of nitrogen and so on to the fruit trees also, I would think.
    I still don't have enough experience to make qualitative comparisons.

    Not sure which Albizzia you are talking about, but they do have mimosa type foliage don't they? I reckon they are a great canopy, probably awesome in your climate where it can get really hot and that light shade would be a real bonus. The albizzia's here seem to be super nitrogen fixers, if the smell that comes off their roots is any indication. Such fast growth too. I love em.
     
  3. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Albizzia julibrissin is in the momosaceae family, so could be called mimosa.

    If you can grow pigeon pea, try that as it is a wonderful soil conditioner, produces wonderful beans, and, ebing a semi perrenial, it aerates the soil when it dies after 2-3 years.

    Passionfruit is a good intercrop that will use the trees as a living standard, but avoid passiflora quadrangularis as it will kill trees!
     
  4. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Yeah i agree with them on both counts

    Tezza
     
  5. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    other species to try or at least research:
    Sesbania sesbans
    Sesbania grandiflora
    Famengia
    Cassia diddimobotria
    Cassia elata
    Calliandra cayothyrus
    Leuceana
    Crotalaria

    Samea samans (monkey pod)
    Pterocarpus indicus
    Tipuana tipu
    Inge edulis (ice cream bean)
    Casuarina aren't legumes but fix nitrogen with a Frankia (?) rhizobium.

    those last few are larger more longer term trees, whereas the first grouping tend to be shorter, or short lived...

    I love nitrogen fixing trees.
    for ground covers, you can't beat perenial peanut (Arachis sp) once it is established
     
  6. Ryan

    Ryan Junior Member

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    Christopher,

    This is off subject, but yesterday I was at our local farmers market and ran into a friend of a friend who just got back from Central and South America. His name is Brian and as it turns out he stayed and worked two weeks at your place in Belize. He said your farm is amazing. He is really inspired to get more involved with pc. I just thought I'd mention that as I was amazed at what a small world it really is.
    Keep up the good work. Ryan
     
  7. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Ryan,

    I think the beauty in the NFT's, apart from their nitrogen fixing and mulch duties is that they are easy to propogate, fast growing and cannot really be planted in the wrong place. [IF, you dont let them get on top of you. ]

    They can however be left to grow too long or get too big in the wrong place. If you are handy with a bush saw or chainsaw just keep lopping and dropping them. If they do turn out to be in the wrong place, cut them off short. I cut a vertical X through down through the stump to ground level and pour some active compost on the stump and make that the start of the next compost heap. I have always found some sort of fungus thingy in the compost will attack the tree stump and kill it.


    I am a fan of albizia too as an annual source of compost[after flowering], it is a fine shade tree and climbing tree for kids. I have albizia lebbeck and tamarind as well as a poinciana [delonix regia] for shade. The delonix is more inclined to drop branches though and the seed pods are huge. I havent really had an issue with self-sown trees and both have been there over 15 years. The albizia is much tidier and makes better compost-in my opinion.

    In my orchard I use pigeon pea as much for microclimate as anything. I do not have any gleditsia or sesbania. YET!! I am still too chicken to plant leucena or erythrina.

    In 15 months time I get to start a new fruit orchard - well fenced to keep the wallabies and domestic stock out, apart from chooks and guinea fowl. Also I plan a 'horse & cow orchard' - well fenced to keep the weeds IN... So that I can grow bamboo(s), jackfruit, mango, durian, erythrina, gleditisa triacanthos, leucena, sesbania, inga breadfruit etc. All can be quite massive but provide good forage and shelter too. I am concerned about the weed potential [dry tropics here] of some of these and would hate to plant a couple of hundred as a fence line and create a local problem.

    I think the thing to remember is that nearly all of the Nitrogen Fixing Trees have great qualities [large seed, grow fast, prolific, can be coppiced etc] can also make them bastards to get rid of.

    Plant the right tree in the wrong area and it can be devastating. Ever heard of malelueca ericifolia, a great tree, loves a damp spot and can handle drought, nice flowers, interesting papery bark that make it nearly fire-proof, grows quickly. As a Floridian I think you will know what I mean..

    Cheers,

    floot
     
  8. Ryan

    Ryan Junior Member

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    Your right Floot, malelueca ericifolia is taking over many forests in Florida. It is almost impossible to get rid of. I just planted my mimosa tree recently, with passion flower vine at its base and yarrow as a ground cover. Looking at the large mimosa trees Ive seen here I think it will make a great trellis for the passion flower to climb. I found both the mimosa and passion flower growing volunteer in places where they weren't wanted. So I moved them to my food forest. I'll let you all know how they do together.
     
  9. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi Ryan,

    Well, the world is a small place! We remember Brian. He was a great guy! I am glad he liked it here. Tell Brian we said hello!

    I just today was looking at the cassia grandis trees, which are at the tale end of flowering, wonderful orange flowers, and thinking about the various NFTs here, like the erythrinas, which are flowering, the Golden Shower (cassia fistula) and the cuam wood (schizelobium parahybum) trees, one of the seccesional plants that return to damaged areas and their gorgeous yellow flowers, and the varios bauhinias with their white, purple or pink flowers, and the pride of babrbados, with their yellow, red or orange flowers, the flamboyant (delonix regia), acacias, the tamarind, and all of the sesbanias all add so much to the pallete of coulours here in a year. They also make wonderful bee fodder, and attract pollinators for other crops.

    Other NFTs, like leaucaena, the ingas and madre de cacao (glyricidia sepium), are also useful, and interplanted, like the pigeon pea, all over, but their flowers are not as visually impacting.

    Glyricidia is used here as a living fence post, and, with age, makes a beautiful wood.

    And, the rosewoods, aka "cocobolo", (dalbergia sisoo and d. stephensonii) make such wonderful wood, as does the Guanacaste (enterlobium cyclocarpum).

    NFTs really add a lot to the farm, between the fertilizing nitrogen fixed through root nodulation, and the nutrient cycling, and the food, the timber, the flowers, etc, plus the birds that use the trees (parrots here sit in the leaucaena trees outside my bedroom, eating seed and making a racket when there are seeds available), they are really versatile and important for the farm. It is easy to overlook how valuable they are, if you don't think about it! This thread made me think about it, sdo thanks for that.

    Floot, there are lots of erythrinas, and not all of them are in danger of being invasive. The e. variegats, for one example, is a short ornamental, with beautiful varigated leaves, and wonderful orange/red flowers!

    Stay a way from the berteroana and the peoppogiana as they get enormous (the Spanish name for e. peoppogiana is "EL Gigante", which translates into English pretty easily!), and have a disturbing tendency to fall over in the wind. Their wood is, also, not really good for anything, but the flowers are beautiful, and they are used for shade in cacao.

    The e. edulis provides pods with chestnut sized seeds, which can be roasted, or fried, but requires (sadly) a higher elevation than we have here. I tried eating it in Venezuala, where they use it for shade in coffee. It sprouted here, but died :( . If you can get it, it is worth growing (and if it will grow for you!)

    C
     
  10. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Schizolobium... In Australia, the common name is "mexican tree fern" I think. It is so beautiful. Grows straight up, yeah? and has a helicopter seed? I haven't seen any of them in these islands at all...
     
  11. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Richard,

    I know a tree from the Katherine Region called 'corkwood' with a wonderful helicopter seeds. We used to drop them off the Katherine River Bridge. I went looking for it on the Net and didnt find it. I believe the corkwood I am thinking of may be a type of kurrajong, but that is speculative guessing.

    I did find an aussie sesbania species, with what seems like many of the features of sesbania sesbans. It may be resilient enough to handle our termites too.

    https://www.deh.gov.au/cgi-bin/species-bank/sbank-treatment.pl?id=6491

    No need then to import an ornamental into the region. I have seen this tree but cannot remember where, probably roadside in the Kimberely.

    cheers.

    floot
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Richard, "cuam wood" is what we call it here, but the schizolobium is a wonderful tree, no matter what you call it. The wood is good for little, not a timber, nor particularly good for building, but the flowers are wonderful/ Most of our trees got it in the hurricane back in 2001, but are now coming back. The hills on our land used to be covered with yellow flowers, and I have missed that (the cordia, though, has taken up the slack, and while not a legume, it is a valuable timber tree.)

    We got our first flowers this year since the hurricane, and they are a welcome sight.
     
  13. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Nice, Christopher.
    To go back to the original question of this thread, how close to the legume trees do we plant our "target" or "climax" species, most often, fruit trees? So that the root systems overlap? So that at maturity the driplines are just touching? Are we planting with final density in mind from the start, or just planting as much as we can propagate and planting to chop most of it out as the overcrowding starts? etc
     
  14. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    I too planted legumes interplanted amongst my fruit trees,All at same time,

    I try to do my garden as a nature knows best set up(As in a Forest),and have left them to them selves over last 6 years.Oh the best layed plans of men and mice :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Last year i lost 12 outa 13 tagasasties,(prolly cause of wet feet or an unknown virus or disease.Not sure really)Thats ok they were at a chop own height anyways (coincedently)My Taggas were planted as on a short term growers/usages only so ,nature thinned em for me,allthough they were transplanted as 3 foot treelettes.

    I too hold onto the theory of allowing tree roots to find their own places in life,and hopefuly rely on nature to allow this to continue,without too much root encrouchmen between trees.If not its just a simple matter of culling,or thinning out any extra large overpowering trees/shrubs.....

    Terence
     
  15. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Richard, you touched on an issue that is worth thinking about, not just the vertical and horizontal spacing, but temporal spacing, where things will be in 5-10-20 years, and how to maximize production, minimize competition, and allow for nutrient cycling and the ebb and flow of successive plant guilds as componenents take up their space in a temporal/linear fashion, while others reach maturity, or senescence, and leave the scene.

    Pigeon pea, as we have established, is a great transition to a mixed/stacked polyculture, regardless of the presence of NFTs at planting or at some later time. But some of the subsequent planting can also be of the same nature, albeit of a different time scale. A harvest cycle of 20 years enables interplanted trees with harvest cycles of 50 (or more) years to take up some of the space vacated after the 20 year harvest cycle is concluded, and if canopy space is allowed for the fruit and nut trees during the inter years, their needs have to be measured, too!

    So, while some spacings may seem tight initially, in a consideration of spacing in time, with 5, 10, 20 year periods in mind, as you pointed out, we will have to step back and ask, what will work at various stages of that time period?

    We have a lot of NFTs here, all over the farm.... and they benefit their arboreal neighbors, through root nodulation, nutrient cycling subsoil, leaf litter, attracters of pollenators, as canopy species for cacao/coffee, etc, and we are now looking at projections of canopy, with an eye towards thinning components to get a yield of sorts, as timber, saleable wood, fuel wood, etc...

    We have a part of the farm that climaxed, as we anticipated, after 15 years of growth. But iot kept growing! It is now a bit tangld in there, up in the canopy.... We are loath to chop without a clear goal besides sanitation pruning.... but..... we have had to thin branches! Danged section wouldn't stop growing when it was supposed to!

    I guess it depends on what your projected outcomes are for the area in question. Chopping and thinning may be the best way to go.... it offers some adbvantages..... except for most people (like me!) get attached to the trees we plan out, having nurtured them through the bnursery, planted and tended them, hate to thin..... and... then..... >whack, whack, whack< thinning them, or, harder yet, eliminating them is a mighty hard thing to do! (sob, my beloved tree, forgive me!)

    So what is the final density, in a 5-10-20 year picture? Even after that tme, growth and change will occur. No biotic community will stand still. The stablest looking communities are all in a state of flux or potential flux, and growth is inevitable.

    Further, competition, cooperation? What density is mutually beneficial, what is the threshold of competition whereby one compenent will grow at the cost of the others, or what density makes all components suffer?

    The question, I suspect, is capable of provoking endless answers, dependent on making finite the innumerable variables of species selection, appropriateness of soil types, weather patters, desired outcomes, target species and rank of importance of various components (cacao dominant polyculture? coffee? timber? soft fruit?), etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc......

    Having said that,
    is about as good a way to say it as I can think of!
     
  16. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Richard,

    Back to the original question of what spacing for NFT's.

    I have only ever believed that the value of an NFT is in its compostable materials, whether that is via chop & drop or the breakdown of leaf litter.

    I dont think many of the types of trees that would be used in a foodlot/woodlot can make direct use of an NFT. Certainly NFT's make great micro-climates but if left uncontrolled would mostly out compete most of the target species. I really would stack-plant NFT's for chop & drop and for creating microclimates with the end result of ultimately having nearly all of the NFT's gone from an orchard in about 5-8 years. Leaving a few that were assisting as windbreak/microclimate/space fillers. Ultimately leaving a legume sward underneath as a living compost layer.

    Christopher, tks for the heads up on erythrina. I was referring to one of the commonly named permie trees but as you say, it has many forms and probably one that would be site specific for me.

    Interesting to hear you guys talking about cassia fistula, which I have had described to me as one of the world's truly useless trees. I have one near my back door to stop the morning sun for half the year. It does a good job, grows quickly, great to prune, loves attention, solid shade. Requires a lot of water to stop it shedding its leaves too early. A dry week can set it off in my climate.

    Downside, it has just about killed the lawn under it. Drops huge quantities of leaves that unless mowed & caught are very difficult to compost. Produces huge quantities of small sticks [which I used as pigeon nesting material]. The seed pods are like batons [hence the french baton casse] and look like they are filled with sump oil. Bees dont like it and I have never seen a birds' nest in one.

    Good pioneer and shade tree. I didnt find any evidence of any NFT ability though. I will keep it, my kids called it the Australia Tree due to its vived gold flowers and green leaves.

    A lot is made of 'companion planting' and its afficionados wax lyrical but their attention seems to be restricted to annual vegetable and flowers. I havent read anything along the same lines for trees although guilds are discussed. Maybe we should start a list of companion trees that we know like each other, examples - from me.

    Neems & conifers do well together.
    Citrus and tamarinds dont like grass or anything else near their dripline and are happiest with other citrus or tamarinds.

    Two that I can think of........ oh yes... one from my childhood but I doubt I will have any takers........ Boxthorn & Mulberry trees love each others company.

    Cheers

    floot
     
  17. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Floot,

    We have lots of legumes mixed into our agroforestry areas, with a full range of varieties, some with small bipinnate leaves, others with broader leaves.

    Leaucaeana works well with many other trees, because its foliage is so thin, it allows a very nice dappled shade.

    Glyricidia is called "madre de ccacao", which suggests it is good for planting with cacao (it is good for cacao).

    Some of the erythrinas are considered exceptional for coffee or cacao, but my favorite, used in coffee, which I mentioned doesn't grow here, is e. edulis, which is used in Venezuala and Colombia for coffee. It requires elevations of over 1000 meters, which is why it can't grow here.

    In much of Central and South America, erythrina is part of the agroforestry for the shade and the notrogen fixing, but the leaves are important, too, being used for fodder for animals.

    At Escuela Agriculture Region Tropical Humido (EARTH) in Costa Rica, they use glyricidia for goats. Many of the erythrinas are considered valuable in cut and carry forage operatiions for their high protein leaves.

    The cassias do kick their leaves off in the dry season, and while we have a few c. fistulas, the native dominant cassia i c. grandis, and it ususally keeps a percentage of its leaves. Our c fistula trees are young, so have not seen them with bees, but the c grandis are all a humming hub of activity when in flower.

    Since most of what we are doing is agroforestry related, including modeling transitions from areas under some form of annual production, old milpa, or areas subjected to slash and burn for corn, into stacked polycultures, we use lots of NFTs, but a lot of what we are targeting for production is shade loving or requiring, like coffee and cacao, or vanilla.

    Our transition from open space in the wake of an annual cropping episode into "food forest" includes NFTs and other pioneer species, many of which are ground cover legumes, like arachis, mucuna beans, cannavalia beans, pigeon pea (not truly a ground cover, but useful for the outputs required: ssupressed grass, buffers the affects of rain and sun, fixes nitrogen, etc), and others, like tithonia and banana, which are not legumes, and we use annual crops in the space between the trees, which benefit from their association with NFTs and ground covers.

    The use of NFTs is very important to establish a stacked polyculture, and in the areas where the farm is well established, they are an integral part of the farm now as the services they provide, nitrogen fixing, soil retention, bee fodder, habitat creation, nutrient cycling by mining subsoil, etc, are all important, and some of them are NFT specific.

    We also use legumes for trellacing things like choko (in a an area of glyricidia stakes/turned trees), or loofa (which we use for body and dish washing) and we have been using legumes like glyricidia for vanilla, which works well.

    For a cacao or coffee dominant polyculture, or an agroforestry system with coffe or cacao as the financially rewarding anchor crop, NFTs are an easy choice, but other tree crops, including the anonaceae family, the rollinias, sour sop, anona, cow sop, etc, all benefit from association with NFTs, as do crops lie banana and pineapple.

    And, while many of these trees are "worthless" for timber and food, if they produce seed, the bees do pollinate them, which adds value to the system both for attracting pollinators and for bee fodder if the farm integrates bees.

    Regarding eliminating them from the system, Floot, for our applications, keeping them is important in maintaining fertility, and for shading cacao and coffee, and for bee fodder (even tho we are not keeping bees right now). This doesn't universally apply, of course, but t works for us.

    Lastly, they are really pretty, some of the NFTs! And esthetiques are a difficult to quantify benefit (how much does beauty weigh? how much is a canopy of flowers worth?), but even without assigning a quantity of value for their beauty, acknowledging that this beauty has value (in addition to the various services the NNFTs provide, etc, etc, etc) is a good thing!

    This was hard for me, because for years I DIDN'T DO ornamentals, simply refused, considering them superfluous and unimportant, but my Calvanist work ethic utilitarian efficiency made way for larger considerations, especially after we had so much food that planting more made little sense.... and via looking at the services ornamentals provide....

    We have a mulberry, which is touted as being high quality forage for goats in cut and carry systems, but it is slow growing... maybe it needs a boxthorn? (BTW, what is the scientific name for boxthorn? we might have it in Belize inder another name...)
     
  18. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Floot, I am into chopping and dropping the legumes, to hasten the nutrient cycling a little bit, especially ones with good "coppicing" ability, but as you have noticed with the C. fistula, many legumes are really messy, they drop lots of leaves and flowers and branches - whenever they do this there is corrsponding root mass being culled underground too, and if there are the right bacteria, those roots should be swarming with nitrogen nodules - so, even if you never intercede at all, having NFT species interplanted in your orchard, should increase available nitrogen and soil life, no? The other benefits that Christopher mentions, shade, flowers attracting pollinators and predators, beauty shouldn't be undervalued either, in my opinion.
    I just planted a little stand of Cassia (or Senna) didymobotrya amongst a planting of Guadua (bamboo) and Albizzia (longer term canopy legume). The didymo's smell like popcorn, and the bees love them. They will I hope grow to about ten feet in a year, with multiple stems, and they can take cutting back every so often. The bees absolutely love 'em. Hopefully they will help to shade out the grass in that area and reduce my need for maintenance, and I'll have an in situ source of mulch for my bamboo. Won't have to use fossil fuels no more, to cart straw mulch or woodchips or whatever from other parts of the farm or island. Just have to keep my pruners and machete sharp!
     
  19. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Guys,

    African Boxthorn - Lycium ferocissimum
    https://www.google.com.au/search?so...=GGLD,GGLD:2004-04,GGLD:en&q=african+boxthorn

    :D I have always grown flowers in my vegie gardens and it always made people comment. It made sense to me, my vegie garden was well attended and looked after. Besides, I think carrots like flowers too.

    I have always grown mulch, my wife thought I grew cannas/gingers for their flowers but I primarily planted them as greywater users and mulch plants. I didnt use the corms off these as a food source just in case. Although I heard someone say recently that they watched a doco on the prevalence of e-coli on supermarket lettuces. I had hoped we would get a first hand account of it on here.

    cheers
     
  20. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    This is interesting talking,What is/does N.F.t stand for(dumb olde me)

    Without going further,you all have a great way of seeing things,better then I
    in typing anyways :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    The buety about planting is....Its so easy,Fruit,veges,herbs,or just pretty flowers,It all adds up to a magnificent combination in the end,And only by trying and experimenting by us kinda people will finally prove wich is the best way,,At the moment im slowly going thru my waste tree/limb piles to use as a bit of firewood,in my garden camp fire,Waste not want not as they say

    Terence

    Gday chris
     

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