Looking for cheapest Trompe Designs

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by purecajn, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    there you go, stuck in a mono-brain set. As nature has backups I plan to have multiple energy producers. A larger pool of energy sources means a better chance of never being left in the dark.
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    No pump is needed if we build this right. Air is introduced via the venturi principle in the funnel section.
     
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  3. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Question Pak. I understand how air is introduced during flow, but what do you do if the water source is a still body of water located at the lowest point of the property? Or are you planning on using rainwater only (as it would be the only other source for running water?
     
  4. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I am thinking that water is pumped from lowest part of property up to a pond or cistern that slowly releases back through the system of ponds, waterfalls and streams. It is my hope then that I can recapture energy from the water using gravity as it returns back down to the original pump area.

    Granted, this is a LOT of theory at the moment that I am exploring because I am working on that Master Design for my PDC as you know, and I am totally including this into the system.
     
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  5. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    What is the smallest size piece of land that you rec'on this contraption of yours is gonna require? obviously not a suburban and/or city lot,eh? I'd like to set one of these on a .25 acre lot of basically flat land. As such, I can only see a wind powered pump as the most economical /cost efficient way of getting water high enough over such a short span. Just seems spare parts can be found/scavanged for this setup a lot easier than solar with greater reliablity.
     
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  6. andrew_k

    andrew_k Junior Member

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    That's when you realise that a trompe/trombe isn't the right choice for that property/design.
    The big gain from a trompe is the conversion of existing kinetic energy into another, more usable form. Taking already-captured energy to run a pump, to generate the kenetic energy of the water falling, to then recapture, isn't an energy source, it's an experiment or proof of concept.

    By the time you factor in the conversion losses, transmission losses etc, you'll be quite accomplished to achieve even a 1:1 ERORI ratio.
     
  7. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    would you be so kind as to offer an economical system which doesn't involve batteries? And how do you figure wind as being "already-captured energy" Wind is in motion there-by not captured and in abundance at no charge whereby a water pump driven by same has the advantage of running at its own convience. As long as you don't expel the compressed air at a faster rate than etc.... Heck, I can even install multiple wind driven pumps to increase the water flow into said tromp for faster air reserves. Guess the real question is, is What energy storage options are most available to a given situation. Air, battery and wood are the only 3 I can currently think of with air being the least intrusive on this planet.
     
  8. labradel

    labradel Junior Member

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    seems to me purecajn that the system you suggest is just chasing your tail andrew_k appears to get what i was saying earlier
     
  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    First, trombe and trompe are 2 different things.

    Trombe - A Trombe wall is a sun-facing wall separated from the outdoors by glass and an air space, which absorbs solar energy and releases it selectively towards the interior at night. This is not what we are trying to build from scrap materials.

    Trompe = A water powered gas compressor, commonly used before the advent of the electric-powered compressor.


    The energy of the falling water entrains the air into the water, but that is not the energy that pressurizes the air, as is often incorrectly claimed.

    A simpler version of what we are creating is found at : Pulser Pump, however in this case, we are capturing the air, not letting it escape.
     
  10. andrew_k

    andrew_k Junior Member

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    Firstly let me say that I am VERY enthusiastic about any and all developments of trompe designs. Regardless of the outcome, if you build a working trompe of any scale I will shout your praises from the rooftops. I am playing devil's advocate to encourage deeper self-assesment by anyone who would see a trompe on flat land (or land on which the water needs to be pumped first) as an energy source, instead of what it really is, an energy conversion. I've followed this thread from afar for some time, and sincerely look forward to seeing any of the ideas expressed implemented at any scale to learn more outside of theory.

    Pakanohida: I had been told by a much more experienced permie than myself that trompe/trombe were interchangeable terms. Thank you for correcting that mistake :)

    Purecajan: Lets say you're going to install a windmill to pump water, and then use that water to power your trompe.
    - Your windmill pump, if the classic "sucker rod" design is at most 50% efficient, in that it is only pumping water to the surface during half of it's drive cycle. So there's 50% of your rotational energy from your windmill prop gone straight away.

    - So you pump the water up hill, store it (existing dam? 7000gal+ water tank?) and then release it down the hill to create air pressure. It's already impossible for your trompe to produce as many kJ of energy as the wind was exerting on the windmill blades, due to the losses of the windmill pump. So if your most desired output is compressed air, a windmill-driven air pump would be at least as efficient, very likely more efficient. It would take drastically less space and physical infrastructure, and would thereby have less points at which it can fail.

    - Maybe your primary desired output is electrical energy? So you're going to pump this water up hill, run it back down again to compress air, then use that compressed air to turn a turbine and charge a battery. If that is the primary use case, then a rotor driving the stator directly is incomparably more efficient due to 100% of the rotational force of the rotor being exerted on the stator. Using wind to push water to create kinetic energy to produce compressed air to drive a stator is many generations of high-loss energy transfer to drive a stator that the original wind could have driven.

    - If, however, your primary desired output is a high level of dissolved oxygen in the water, say for aquaculture and/or hydroponic farming, and you also have an existing need for compressed air without large investment in pneumatic tools (you're going to need to do a HELL of a lot of digging to drive air compressor-driven tools of this, which will mean more work for your windmill... what's the head on this windmill, 10m or 100m?), THEN, perhaps a force-fed trompe is a good element to fit those functions.

    My primary point is, what's being discussed isn't the generation of energy, which was your stated goal at the start of this thread. You're taking lots of existing energy and converting it into a lot less energy in a different form. If you can acquire the entirely of the physical infrastructure discussed above for free or extremely cheap, sure, maybe that's the way to go...
     
  11. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    However, what IF (what if angels sat on pin heads!) what IF the same windmill is tied into both the compressor, and the battery back up? What if I actually gain more water as I go down hill, then I can pump uphill? Pumping uphill in my case is purely for water recirculation, not to drive the trompe itself. The trompe is a side benefit (note multiple uses here) from a stream, and can actually wind up collecting power from multiple sources then in-addition to the trompe.

    The trompe funnel & how much water it allows in would also indicate how much water comes out the other end, stream flow then is negated and controlled variable, and since pumps can go say anywhere from 20 to 80gph with as much as 40' of head pressure using as little as 24watts of Solar energy; my solar panel has over 30watts left over. I can now recapture air, and water energy in addition to solar in this setup.

    So I don't see myself converting it into less energy, I see myself converting it into multiple types of energy. It's the permaculture way!!!
     
  12. andrew_k

    andrew_k Junior Member

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    Then that windmill would provide half the amount of energy to the compressor and the strator as it would to either alone, assuming the load of both devices is equal.

    There's no free lunch, you can't put two energy drains on a single source and not expect twice the energy drain.

    40' head off a 24W pump? That is seriously impressive. You have such a pump?
    Purecajan's original spec didn't include incorporating and existing flowing stream, doing that you add some propery energy capture to your energy transfer/conversion scheme.

    I look forward to seeing how this/these project(s) progress :y:
     
  13. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    trompe's in general work off of a constant water source & the amount of air from venturi principle far outweighs the amount of energy the pump would use.

    Personally, I think I am done with daydream mode, I want to make this NOW, but I don't have the spare parts and things in place to make this yet. It IS part of my master design though already, and between the PDC course, the spring planting, the damage from the last storm (lost another chicken tractor), and current projects I need to reel myself in and knock out projects.
     
  14. Wetrocks

    Wetrocks New Member

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    Trompe design

    Pakanohida:

    By way of introduction I have been working with Trompes for two years now. I have built four of them. Three are in service at mine drainage treatment sites. The fourth is my test facility.

    The amount of pressure that a Trompe can develop is limited to 0.43 psi per vertical foot of the return (discharge) pipe. So if you want to generate 43 psi then the vertical length of the return pipe must be 100 feet. Because of this limitation Trompes are best suited for low pressure applications.

    Wetrocks
     
  15. Wetrocks

    Wetrocks New Member

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    Pakanohida

    By way of introduction I have built 4 tromps. Three are in mine drainage treatment plants and one is my test facility.

    The air pressure that is possible from a trompe is determined by multiplying the vertical length of the return pipe by 0.43 psi per foot. If you want to generate 43 psi then your trompe must have a 100 foot vertical return pipe. This is often the limiting factor in trompe design. If you have a source of flowing water and a low pressure application then a trompe can be a very attractive alternative.

    Wetrocks
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Trompe example in action.

    https://youtu.be/oxJTC77PADQ

     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    https://charleshtaylor.blogspot.com/2006/03/1905-1910-building-of-ragged-chutes.html
     
  18. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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  19. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Now I like that
     
  20. Farside

    Farside Junior Member

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    Any idea how we can calculate the dimensions of the intake pipe based on the volume of compressed air we need?

    Like you said, length and pressure is easy. I haven't found anything to do with air volume.

    BTW it is possible to get 1000psi from a smaller trompe other than a really long pipe and that's by using a Hydraulic intensifier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_intensifier
     

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