Looking for cheapest Trompe Designs

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by purecajn, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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  2. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    hmm, ineresting. I was searching trompe pumps which kept pointing me too ram pumps for some reason. Trompe power eh? figures. tell the mrs thank u 4 me pls. I'll start looking for some large container to bury now. Any recomendations for a possible free recyclable which could be used as an air storage chamber? Would an old electric/gas water heater tank be large enough for same? And if so how long would said energy reserve last?
    Pak, can you point me too a good instructional for construction of the cone?
    The final piece of my Trompe application would be finding a windmill design for pumping water vertically. I saw a water well application in africa where the energy produced from children playing on a Carousel was used to manually draw the water (possible centrifical pump). As they pushed it around in a circle the water would pump up. Figure that design could be converted too wind driven. Would be great to hook this to a rain collection barrel/tank and cycle said water in a perpetual loop for free energy. No light required. This could also increase oxygen in the water used for plants and allow you too put an extra water storage tank higher in the house/property for gravety feeds. Layering your energy storage capacity. The more backups the better.
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    If I find one I will let you know. I was already planning on making an egg shaped cistern for water, I reckon a smaller version could be done for this very reason as well.

    Regarding oxygen level and water. I have read this book, and the findings about increased oxygen, and rhythmic oscillation of water is astounding.

    For me, setting up the water, and now trompe is going to be a very interesting design problem. Luckily I have a place next to an existing building that I can build a trompe with a natural gravity drop, however I do not believe I will be able to bury the air capture dome in 100' of earth.

    It is because of that, I am wondering... a lot.

    Propane tank for storage? I personally am not sure a water tank can hold the pressure. We are talking about the very real possibility of 1000+ psi If you have ever visited a Ski Mountain on the East Coast, those snow making lines run 1000 psi for air, and another 1000psi for water ((we used fire truck hoses and connections)) & results can be interesting if you are not careful with your air and water lines under that kind of pressure!

    We have a lot to think about and design, and I look forward to it.
     
  4. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Why are you placing your cone so high? I understand the pressures that can be achieved, but when do you really need a reserve of that high of pressure other than a Industrial Setting? As long asyou have a reliable regeneration rate for your energy input then (theoretically) that type of pressure/drop wouldn't always be needed. After all, how much pressure is needed at any one point of our daily lives which would require more than 30psi? I can run a pnumatic motor with a lot of torque on 30psi (great for small generators), but much less is needed to supply power to lighting. Cheap old DC Motors from kid racetrack toys can be mechanically spun with little air pressure allowing it to generate enough power for lighting too individual lamps/fixtures. One could store larger amounts of low pressure air much more safely/cheaply as well.
    Pak-I have a PDF of "Alexandersson - Living Water - Viktor Schauberger and the Secrets of Natural Energy" and "Coats & Schauberger - Living Energies - Viktor Schauberger's Brilliant Work With Natural Energy Explained" if you'd like copies.
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Based on little information I was going with the illustration in the Permaculture Designer's Manual where the tank is placed at a depth of 30 to 100 meters. 30 meters is roughly 90', or a simple approximation of 100'.

    The question of daily pressure (needs) is being discussed with my wife with some constant joking. :)
     
  6. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    A 1000L chemical/water container may be suitable as storage? the clear/white plastic ones in a metal cage.. while it wouldn't hold pressure above ground, with support from the earth it should be ok for 20-30psi

    I have no idea how much compressed air something like this would make, but i think you're underestimating the amount of compressed air that powering different devices takes.
    even if you get to 60psi there wont be the energy to do anything like power a car (for more than about 2km)
    there isn't
    enough energy density in compressed air to use it in this fassion (at least at these pressures)

    rotary vein engines (most common way to extract power from air) use a massive amount of compressed air and are usually designed for use at 100psi
    while certainly capable of powering a generator i think you would need at least 30 cubic feet per minute of air at 100psi (that's twice what the biggest single phase electric compressors develop)

    a low rpm piston pump (like a steam engine that uses compressed air) connected to a large flywheel, and geared to run a generator may be a better solution.
    perhaps you could use the pressure to send the water back up the hill (eternal motion...woot) and leave the windmill free for electricity generation, thus eliminating one conversion and improving efficiency
     
  7. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    Wow these trompe things are the ticket!!!

    Really awesome idea... i would edit my previous post to reflect my amazement, but this will have to do...

    Can anybody with some engineering know-how calculate the air pressure per mete of drop?

    then its just a matter of scaling it to meet requirements: bigger drop= more pressure, more flow= well... more flow...

    still not sure how you would go with the car though.. finding high pressure storage tanks would be the problem i expect.. lpg tanks would only be good for 200psi or so i would think.

    This really IS a free energy device!!! close the loop and you only have to raise the water enough to get it to flow down the pipe again, which should be easily achievable with the energy produced? or am i missing something?
     
  8. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    I have been putting some thought into the matter, and have a few ideas.

    The system could be basically self contained, consisting of 100ft of 1inch polythene pipe an old compressor tank or similar, and a cone made from old coke bottles straws and plaster. and the steepest hill you can find.
    The coke bottles (biggest available) have a nice venturi shape.. one could be cut down the side and tightened to fit inside the other to provide the required gap.

    (I have no idea what the output of this system would be, it would be a test bed.)

    [​IMG]

    Obviously the cone is as far above the tank as practical.

    A small pump could operate off the air to keep the water circulating. it would only need a few inches of pressure to keep the water circulating fast enough to remain in suspension.

    My only worry here is if the pipe is on too much of an angle the air might all rise to the high side and create a continuous channel up to the cone, releasing the air.

    a possiple fix for this would be to have the inside of the downward pipe 'rifled' or fitted with a screw that would keep the air broken up in the stream of water.
     
  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    The intake should do a 90 degree turn, not 180, you will most likely vapor lock that way. No water or air in or out. What wants and needs to flow & oscillate.

    Check out the picutre in the Permaculture Designers Manual, or the one from Mother Earth's News.

    On a side note, as a former New Yorker, I was PISSED OFF yesterday when I learned NYC subways used to run on compressed air which was changed for purely political reasons. Every New Yorker since the 30's could of had clean subways, with healthy air.
     
  10. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    the pic in the permaculture design manual shows the inlet doing a 180deg bend???
     
  11. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    It goes 90 degrees to the air capture vessel, then continues past, then back up. The way I see your intake, it would lock up. Did you look at the pic from Mother Earth News?
     
  12. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    yeah i saw that one thanks...

    its no drama to have the pipe only bend 90deg, but can you explain why you think it would vapor lock?
     
  13. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Experience with aquariums, it's going to be harder for the air to go around a 180 degree turn, then 90, release air, 90 back to the water flow.
     
  14. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    I'm thinking you'd want the drop tube too butt right next too the air storage chamber with water transition at a 180 degree. The sharp turn is encouraging the release of more air whereby the flow/weight of the onward rushing water carries any extra bubbles into the storage tank.
    While we're at it, what would the diameter of said down pipe be? and what readly found/cheap material can be used for same? PVC may work, for the intake and release tubes in a low pressure system.
     
  15. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    No idea how you would calculate water flow ect...

    i guess it really only matters that you can supply enough water with enough head, to keep the water flowing faster than the bubbles can rise

    if the Ragged Chutes plant, has 14 inch pipes 350 foot long, then 1.5 inch pipe over 35 foot drop sounds reasonable?

    it would be nice to have a pressure figure on the Ragged Chutes trompe...anyone?

    its only the depth of the 'tank' compared to the cone that is giving pressure, does this rise and fall in a linear scale compared to depth?
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Wouldn't air pressure be relative to the amount of air deposited by the pipes, and not by rise and fall in linear scale?

    Linear scaling, I would think, would simply be the matter of being able to drop water enough to pull in air, what I wonder is does depth matter like you said, a 1.5" pipe over 35' is more reasonable then going 100' down on many properties.

    The depth of the air tank does have at least 2 functions I see right off the bat, cooling & secondary sealing via pressure of mass above it. Remember, we can produce a huge amount of air pressure this way, dangerous amounts that can freeze.
     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    ...this just in...

    Just found this.

    https://poormanguides.blogspot.com/2010/03/harness-hydro-power.html

    I do not believe the psi of the intake tube matters, the water / air mix goes 90 degrees, the air gets released, THEN the water going up is under some pressure till it resurfaces below the entrance height. What is under pressure would be the air tank. The air tank might have to be lowered for sufficient pressures.

    Check these out:

    https://www.survivaltopics.com/forums/survival-tech/21350-diy-solar-powered-regrigerator-2.html

    https://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/hero/section74.html

    https://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/hero/section53.html
     
  18. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    looks like the pressure increases you found are accurate..

    i found this
    https://charleshtaylor.blogspot.com/2006/03/1905-1910-building-of-ragged-chutes.html
    https://www.piclist.com/techref/other/pump/raggedchute.htm

    which has the air pressure at 120psi at ragged falls. close to the 154psi calculated with your figures...

    so... hmmm.... were not going to be able to do anything with 15psi....

    i think bill might have been mistaken with his 1000psi figure.


    The air isn't putting any pressure on the system over what is caused by the column of water.

    looks like 200 foot is probably your minimum depth, this would give you 80psi which would be useable for air tools ect.

    also found this which doesn't look great for compressed air cars...

    Compressed air has relatively low energy density. Air at 30 MPa (4,500 psi) contains about 50 Wh of energy per liter. For comparison, a lead–acid battery contains 60-75 Wh/l. A lithium-ion battery contains about 250-620 Wh/l. Gasoline contains about 9411 Wh per liter.[1]; however, a typical gasoline engine with 18% efficiency can only recover the equivalent of 1694 Wh/l. The energy density of a compressed air system can be more than doubled if the air is heated prior to expansion.


    Still worth doing though.... a decent volume of compressed air at 80psi would do an awful lot... like provide all your power ect!
     
  19. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

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    This was interesting too:

    my calculations based on this information indicate that a 1.5id pipe should supply 33cfm (cubic feet per minute)
    that's the equivalent of 2 large tradesman size compressors. so pretty good.

    a 3inch pipe would supply 132 cfm... heaps!!!


    [​IMG] Afif Abou-Raphael said... Mr. Charles Taylor is my hero,

    Firstly, for having his hydraulic air compressor working for the benefit of the mining industry that was in need of a lot of compressed air.

    Secondly, for having this compressor for me in order to produce compressed air for my Air Bucket Turbine (My Patent; https://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...50&s1=6990809.PN.&OS=PN/6990809&RS=PN/6990809

    Or

    https://patents1.ic.gc.ca/details?patent_number=2328580

    Sadly, the Canadian Researches Counsel NRC/CNRC didn’t understand yet the benefit of Mr. Taylor’s’ compressor that can transform any hydraulic power of any waterway to compressed air power that can be used in my machine where the output energy of my system backed up by Mr. Taylor’s compressor, will produce much more energy than energy produced by using the hydraulic power in conventional water turbines.

    As an example; in ragged chute the compressor was using 22.7 cubic meter of water in order to produce 40,000 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air at 8.625bars, while the average water flow of the Montreal River is about 67.5 cubic meter.

    Thus, if we build a Taylor’s type Hydraulic Air Compressor capable of containing the full average water flow of the Montréal River, the produced compressed airflow would be, around three times the produced 40,000cfm which is (40,000 x 3 = 120,000cfm).

    Doing the calculations of the output power of an air bucket turbine using 40,000cfm at 8.625bars will produce around 6 megawatts of electrical power before energy lost deduction.

    Thus, with 120,000cfm an output electrical energy will be around 18 megawatts before energy lost deduction.

    Now, if we deduct whatever amount of lost energy, the positive output energy would be more than 12 megawatts. (A spreadsheet of calculation is available to anybody needing it; my e-mail is: abouraphael@ipcet.com

    The present output energy of the conventional turbines of the hydro electrical power station that is using the full water flow of the Montréal River is about 7 megawatts.

    Here I ask the Government, why we don’t use Mr. Taylor’s Hydraulic Air Compressor to producing more energy out of our water ways in a time we are crying to find new sources of renewable energy.

    Another very important issue makes me proud of Mr. Taylor, that is;

    The power of the Ragged Chute’s Hydraulic Air Compressor is about 5,500hp, and the produced airflow volume was 40,000cfm at 8.625bars or more. Thus every 1hp produces 7.27cfm at 8.625bars (40,000cfm / 5,500hp = 7.27cfm)

    While every 1hp, produces 4cfm at 100psi or (6.7bars) in the most performing conventional compressor.
    https://www.energytechpro.com/Demo-IC/MoreDetail/Air_Compressor_Tutorial.htm .

    Thus, how cam 1hp produces in Mr. Taylor’s compressor almost double airflow volume than in conventional compressors regardless of the difference of pressure.

    My Biggest question to the scientific community;

    Where is the first and second low of thermodynamic, in Mr. Taylor’s Compressor and in the conventional compressors?

    And because Mr. Taylor’s compressor is a reality, than, I thing the books of physics have to be updated in order to give Mr. Taylor his due in science.

    Inventor; Afif Abou-Raphael
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I am unsure about that, Bill Mollison is one of the few people who has built one in the last 100 years.
     

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