Looking for cheapest Trompe Designs

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by purecajn, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    It is my understanding that a Trompe is one of the most useful, yet under rated energy device available too those of financial hardship. As such I thought it would be nice to locate a few Trompe Designs which can be made easily from that which is normally discarded.
     
  2. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
  3. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    Thanks Dz, I'm familiar w/ both the Pulser Pump and Ram pump. While researching the Trompe These 2 were the closest I could find to it, but as I understand it the Trompe compresses air. I was just going to use the ram/pulser Pump design with a tweek in hopes of duplicating a trompe, but thought I'd post for an actual Trompe plan first
     
  4. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The actual plan depends on what is your situation with water potential and what do you need, energy or water. I say "applied design" use what you already have and make something, then upgrade at the time. Its pure enjoyment experimenting with those water stuff, think some Schauberger vortex, old neon tubes etc....
     
  5. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    Due to no running water I'll have to make it where it stores the energy for later use. As such I'm hoping to catch rainwater and store and store whatever compressesd air I can from it, hence the original trumpe design would work best I think. Either rain or I can use a converted 10speed bicycle to pump water from the pond. Hoping it could be for 30-1hour per day of pedeling for enough compressed air for the day.
    Any other ideas?
     
  6. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Looks to me that you don't have any usable energy potential in water on your property. :) Why do you need compressed air?
     
  7. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    I have a lake in the backyard that I can use a wind pump too pump water up. Using the trumpe will allow me to trap tair as a energy reserve. That way when the wind isn't generating power I have something other than batteries to rely on. for power when the windmill isn't turning. Have a big enough storage of air and it can be used to run a vehicle. It's just a pnumatic motor. You'd be surprised how powerful they are. It'll even spin a generator motor.
     
  8. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok but big enough storage? its low pressure air and not much energy density. To complicated wind to water to air...
     
  9. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    easy, the pressure is increased the deeper in the ground you put your storage, this is now compressed and cold. Throw a little heat on it and bam, increase pressure. How much pressure do you think you need to power led's? too spin a pneumatic motor? You pull the pin out of a car tire and see if your thumb can stop the air comming out. thats just 30psi, apply heat and dbl the pressure, etc....

    Whats difficult? I'm wanting to use one windmill too:
    1. pull water from a non-flowing body of water, at its convience for the trompe
    2. trompe makes compressed air for energy storage
    3. windmill recharge batteries as a extra power gain. (optional for financial reasons)
    4. redirect water too the yard plants in times of drought
    5. clean returning water/air quality by running it thru a wetland filter
    6. use filter debre for fertalization
    7. the list can go on and on. It's just finding connections

    All done with little to no financial input. the ticket for villages?
     
  10. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There are already designs for windmills producing compressed air for pulling water, looks complicated to me to pump water for compressed air when you can do it directly. For the rest of the list for using water potential I totally agree.
    Good luck with experimenting.
     
  11. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    I figure a lot of people live in areas where running water isn't an option. This would give them a way of harnessing power with the least amount/if any financial investment. Also make a good water well pump. Constantly circulating water up out of the shaft, collecting the air, water flows back down shaft yet villagers have the option to stick a jug under the water returning.
     
  12. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Eh? What r u trying to do? Am I right thinking you are going to pump water up hill using a windmill then run it downhill to make compressed air store the air then use the air to make electricity? Far out isn't that the long way round ? What energy loss with each step and what setup cost with each step? What about a windmill, big tank and a hydro generator or just a wind generator and battery?
     
  13. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    Correct ppp, well only if it can move water at a high enough rate. Set up cost sould be zero, as it'll be made from scrap (can't help people with no funds if you have to always buy everything. There is no hydrogen generator as ther trompe creates the compressed air through natural processes. Since the air collection is extremely low tech with little to no upkeep then I'd assume this is the first energy source you'd want to use up before turning too your battery reserves. In turn you can take small motors from old broken childrens toys and use it too power you lights (use the air to spin the axle which generates a charge). Running LED's should be no problem.
    Also while the wind turbine is pumping water one could attach a generator too it's shaft. This allows you to dbl your energy reserves at the cost of only 1 energy input. I don't see this supplying enough reserve to run a vehicle, but for home needs it should work. Even if the gen has to be removed because of too much resistance, the energy reserves gained from the tromp would still be enough to power the home is regulated.
    Course, until a working model is created we won't know if the centrifical pump will move enough water. I'm leaning toward the verticle turbines. Get an old rear car axle and turn it up on its side. Build your blades and cut aout your mounts. Bolt everything onto the axle using the same 5 star bolt pattern. centrifugal pumps arn't that difficult too make. There are a number of hacks available, or maybe you can salvage one from an old diswasher or even the water pump from the same vehicle you salvaged the rear axle from. The "big tank" is one of my sticking points. Haven't thought of an item to salvage for it nor have I sat down and figured how large a air storage will be needed. If underground the container walls could be very thin since the earth will supply the containg strength. You might be able to get away with using an old cal. king waterbed bladder.
    It's just difficult to hack this thing together going on nothing but a design seen drawn on a wall by Mr. Mollison. Even online searches of trompe videos lead me too pulsar and ram pumps. Hence, why I posted here for designs. Leaves one with plenty of theory, but no working design to go off of.
     
  14. Farago

    Farago Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Cajun good on you for your interest
    Was taught in my apprenticeship just over 12 main 'trompe' designs, with many offshoots from each of these. The main hard work is in the storage chamber, and excavating the water storage cistern, but the filter systems,'trompe' walls of the cistern are relatively easy.
    They were originally made to oxygenate and filter these water storage cisterns in the Middle East, then the Romans saw how effective they were at allowing people to rebel effectively against them.
    Will be excavating for some cisterns next year with integrated 'trompe' systems, and anyone interested in learning, feel free to contact. Will be documenting all of it, in step by step instructional videos, so when they are ready will post here I guess and people can get a copy. Water storage cisterns as part of keyline design will also be a focus.
    My grandfather always told me that the EROEI of 'trompe' is 2nd only to easy accessible,high quality oil, and there isn't much of that about.
    As far as its role in energy future, in my opinion it should play a frontline role, with solar and wind just as back up....it has far more uses,and the wastes aren't really wastes. The downside when I have been asked over the years "If it is so damn good then why isn't it being used?"...ultimately there is no money in it, and for those who think in way that to them money can magically make energy resources appear this is a nightmare. It can't be patented because they have been around for thousands of years, and if they could be done then then they can be done now.
    Have always been surprised in the lack of real dedicated interest in 'trompes', I guess Angelo DiPietro has wondered the same thing about his engine.
     
  15. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    Concerning the Trompe patent. I was under the impression, (according too Mr. Mollison) that the oil industry bought up all patents concerning the rights too commercialize air technology back in the early 70's, afterwhich all books concerning said technology were checked out of local libraries across N. America and never returned. Sounded like something the oil backers would do so never questioned whether reliable. So lets see, a patent is good for how long? 30 or so years. and I see a new air powered car is being commercialized in France and germany so patent rights would be ending right about now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY1KNxhd2Zs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-A3XHFT5qc Let's see how long it takes for these to be sold in America.
     
  16. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The second one is the real solution, you dont need two tons to move one man, can use ten kilos for one ton or two but the security or insurance have to die. And its fine with me. Die insurance parisite die die da...

    Just mu mantra

    Sorry its just so many parasitic jobs today starting from politics etc...
     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,978
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Permaculture Designers Manual, page 505, figure 13.4

    Or are you looking to make the funnel part?
     
  18. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,978
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Let's see with this system we can run:

    A car ((300 miles is enough for my vehicle))
    a freezer
    a refrigerator
    generate electricity
    increase oxygen in the water making it healthier
    pneumatic tools
    free ice
    sell the air off to medical facilities
    and I think I missed a grip of uses since Chicago and Paris both ran on compressed air systems made by Trompe Designs in 1935.


    For one moment, think of what this world would of been like had we not walked away from this kind of water technology.

    Cajn, this is something I am interested in as well, and I think I found some ways to implement it here. I have at least a 30' drop off the back of the house between the house, and the next bench / major tier down.

    I wonder if the water also being vortex turned like Schauberger would suggest have any benefit... ..the flowforms alone do with regards to oxygen levels and increased biological activity year round.
     
  19. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Self Employed / Semi-retired
    Location:
    Westlake, Louisiana
    Climate:
    Sub-Tropical, Zone 9
    Do you mean use vortex piping on the drop? Forcing the water to spin as it drops? Or the interlocking spad design? Looking for the complete build.
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,978
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    After the funnel I would envision a vortex forcing the spin. Would be nice if the exit was a flow form. I am brainstorming at the moment while getting some friends involved (and pointing them here). :)

    Also, it isn't that the trompe design is patented, its too ancient to be. What they bought out was the compressed car company technologies, but that doesn't mean it cant be reverse engineered and re-done. :nod:

    Would be nice to find some of the old compressed air magazines.
     

Share This Page