Finally: Solar hot water

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by hedwig, Aug 20, 2007.

  1. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    you won't be the only one cosmic!

    still would wonder at maybe something simpler and less expensive being able to deliver not only real power savings to the consumer but real saving to the environment.

    our electric system has a 250 litre tank this means for the average family a lot of hotwater, most solar units are considerably smaller and heaps dearer, ours cost under $700 that makes it affordable to all and doesn't use valuabel mis-appropriated gov' funds that could be better spent in health or education whatever.

    so if you bought a couple panels and a small wind generator, a couple of batteries and an inverter, and then ran you exisiting unit with that power might that might then be out of the ""feel good"" arena, plus come tank replacement time that is all you have to replace.

    simple maths says that keeping the ball park (somewhere sometime gov' sunbsidy will cease and unts won't get cheaper) even a $5k unit is going to cost $250 per annum to cover initial outlay then another $250 at todays prices to cover replacement in 20 years, for the poorer in our community that is an expensive legacy.

    would like to here from hedwig??

    and as we have found those dealers in the renewable industry are in about the same class as door-to-door salesman or insurance or used car salesmen.

    we are having satisfaction problems with a much simpler designed pool heater but still expensive around the $3k marke because it comes under the ""feel good"" charter, and we are getting the same issues with the supplier as i have heard a lot of others are as we did with our initial enquiries into solar inquireies purchases.

    len
     
  2. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    The general feeling of my permi group was that edwards were the best. but it sounded like service and installation problems were solaheart.s downfall.It would be good to know which is the most efficient.
     
  3. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Cosmic wanted to buy a solar hot water system, but was sold a solar-assisted gas system.

    Its purpose is not to free the consumer from purchased energy input, but to maintain dependency on it. This is why the gas can't be turned off. It is also why I am so disparaging about its designer, who probably wasn't even conscious of what he was doing.

    The industrial system will always design its products to sustain itself. It's a difficult mindset to escape. Graduates of our industrial education system are also industrial products. Their output will naturally support the system that created them.
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    good point alex,

    as you say most if not all manufacturers designers are a power unto themselves, they design and make stuff that consumers are indoctrinated into buying due to a perception of efficiency.

    my push is to amass some information for those who want to delve into the murky waters of this ""eco' friendly"" ""feel good"" stuff that they may be better informed and then put pressure back onto the industry maybe to clean up its act?

    so though we mepathise with cosmics situation and we don't hold any fault against cosmic we should all learn from these expereiences so we get it more right as we go along. and if cosmic is on butane gas that is expensive stuff reliant on the oil companies a much as what petrol is, not so bad if you can access natural gas.

    len
     
  5. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    The system is predatorial.

    Roman orator, Cicero, famously posed the question, Que Bono? Who benefits? It's worth keeping that question in mind when making what we now call "consumer choices".
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes alex,

    but i bet not many conumers have that morale in mind when buying so called beneficial products.

    guess that saying can go hand in hand iwth "let the buyer beware" i prefer "let the buyer be warned" or "let the buyer be informed", and from waht i see in these sorts of topics & even sea/tree change there is little of the above, in any criterias (if there is a criteria even? with "feel good" i don't think there is a criterai above "it feels good at the time").

    len
     
  7. Cosmic

    Cosmic Junior Member

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    I am so depressed about our system now. Even more than before. It's not like we could afford to buy it but wanted to have solar badly when the other one broke. Solarhart didn't even ring us back so we didn't buy from them.
    It's natural gas.
    Everyone is just out to screw you.
    Can I swear on here.
    I hate this world.
    That's it.
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    we're on your side cosmic,

    at least natural gas is affordable, we used to have that opportunity at 2 addresses so we opted for on demand gas which is the most efficient way, but in reality you wanted a solar unit with either gas or grid power backup.

    anyhow for now the best i can offer is hang in there try to move on for now.

    len
     
  9. Uncle Yarra

    Uncle Yarra Junior Member

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    Cosmic,
    Have a squiz at my set-up.
    https://pobbs.briarthicket.net/viewtopic.php?t=34
    What you may be able to do is use an instantaneous gas heater with a solar valve. Use your existing tank as just that - a tank, send the output to a solar valve, if it's hot enough, it bypasses the IHW unit, if not, the IHW adds just that heat required to make up the difference - ONLY WHEN IN ACTUAL USE (much more efficient).
    You'll see it as the shiny thick T-section with the red knob in the attached link.
    So for your system you could retro-fit another IHW system and valve (and turn off the gas to your current tank). This is probably an unnacceptable extra cost for you - understandably so. Another alternative would be to sell the tank you have, get a plain one with good insulation and use the funds to offset the cost of IHW components.
     
  10. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Don't be depressed, Cosmic. Just do your homework and look into ways to make your system more efficient. Looks like Uncle Yarra has a good set up, and you can learn a lot about it. Soon you will be quite an expert on solar hot water systems.

    That's what this forum is for, after all, to enable us to share our experiences, and benefit from them.

    Remember that nothing is really wasted. Everything can be used to our benefit.

    My last post was edited at the last minute to remove an angry tirade against the industrial system. I don't want to "smash the system", but I am convinced that is stark raving, barking mad, geared almost exclusively for profit, rather than the general welfare, AKA the Common Wealth. But it also produces marvellous technology like Uncle Yarra's evacuated tube solar collectors, and of course, the ipod.

    Don't hate the world, Cosmic, just help us fix it.
     
  11. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    Cosmic,I think you have to call/write the company which manufacters the system (it is important as well thatthey know what their tradespeople are doing) and ask them.
    I have no idea but with gas heating systems you have alway to take care that the flame is not out while the gas is running.
    I really cannot imagine that you can't turn it off. And you have got a warranty.
    Our system was installed and immediately a week of rin came. It never had the opportunity to heat up properly, but we had at least lukewarm water. Now the sun is out and the water is hot and I will go on running the system without booster. WE've got the booster in case we must sell the house and not everybody is that canny.
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    with gas the flame would rarely go out if ever while you where running hot water but with some units the pilot flame can go out with strong winds etc.,. then you need to re-ignite the pilot flame.

    solar hot water system need a booster whether it is gas or a/c power.

    still would like to here about your system "hedwig"?? you know cost excluding rebate etc.,.?

    whether telling the comany will do much (might even make you feel a whole lot worse) at all is debatable, the person who sold you the unit may simply say this is what you decided that you wanted, they usually cover their tracks well.

    len
     
  13. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    An expensive lesson is a valuable lesson Cosmic share your experience as much as possible.A great many good people are out there wanting the information you now have.

    the end of suffering comes from the living of joy!
     
  14. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    our system is edwards, and it was not the cheapest, but we choose it because the marine grade steel they use which seemed us the most durable.
    It costs 4600 less 700 rebate. But you remind me that they have forgotten the warranty booklet, have to call them tomorrow., so I don't know the exact specification
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    thanks hedwig,

    what size tank does that come with?

    len
     
  16. DirtyDave

    DirtyDave Junior Member

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    Hi Guys,
    I am a plumber in the Barossa Valley,SA
    Cosmic , I haven't seen your heater in SA but i would imaging the sytem has two elecric systems or circuits, the first is a sensor that detects that the water in the panel is hotter than the tank it will then turn the pump on to circulate the hot water to the tank, second the tank itsself should have a thermostat that operates the gas valve, It sounds like the system my not be commissioned properly, from what you are describing the thermostat in the tank is set to high and is allway trying to top up the temprature when it doesn''t need to......

    Solar hot water sytems aren't that simple a good solar dealer has to take into account water usage summer and winter temps min and maximums frost pron areas,
    in the past year some of the bigger manufacturers have been bought and sold, I am not sure what is good anymore,, when i alway purchase anything, back up service is always my priority.
     
  17. Cosmic

    Cosmic Junior Member

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    I am hoping summer brings a lower bill. Already we only need to turn the hot water tap only slightly on and the water is damn hot. What is the average gas bill for two people using it for water and stove(no oven)? I cook a lot. I cook chickpeas, dried beans etc. They use a bit of gas.
    What does your bill come to?
     
  18. DirtyDave

    DirtyDave Junior Member

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    Cosmic, Have you asked the installer, if the unit was commissioned to manufactures specification, If your not happy :( make a warranty claim and advise the installer you are doing so, because the manufacturer will send a service agent out and if installed incorrectly they will charge you for the call, it is then up to you to try and recover that money from the installer,
    :idea: Send me the exact model number and i will run you thru the settings, :D
    There must be a separate setting for the Gas thermostat, as it is only a boost, and would be set at about 60/65c and your solar should be getting way hotter than that. Another thing to be careful of in fitting solars to newish existing houses is to make sure there is no plastic pipes getting super hot water, make sure a solar approved tempering valve is installed, ( Mixes hot and cold water together to a safe temp about 50c ) Solar hot water can get very hot and Dangerous. :shock:
    In South Oz i recommend roof models over split systems, because there is so much less that can go wrong with them , no pumps or computers,,
    The Roof model here in South Aust I have customers that turn the power of to the unit completely for most of the year, if you spread your usage over the day on the days with less input you can still get enough hot water,,,.
     
  19. Cosmic

    Cosmic Junior Member

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    The thermastat dial is locked in the the highest setting with a rivet. Even in the instruction manual it has a picture of it with the rivet in place. They call it a 'fixed thermastat control'.
    the system is Dux sunpro gas 305.
    It says in the manual winter may give a higher gas bill.
    The house is old with all copper pipes.
    I really don't think it's installed wrong. I think it's just he way it is.
     
  20. DirtyDave

    DirtyDave Junior Member

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    solar

    Sorry Cosmic for the late response,
    I have looked at your heater and don't think much of it,
    I feel you've been done buy good marketing,
    Your tank only holds 170 litres, even though the model is called a 305, which is its potential output on a good day, Basically after a few showers your unit reverts back to being a normal gas hot water system, as the solar input cannot keep up with demand,
    The thing with solar is to heat and store enough hot water to go the distance, having a large storage tank means during the day the sun can heat up enough water for your evenings needs, having a large storage means your storing heated mass your not wasting water as you only use what is required ,solar its free after all. some of the bigger units can go days with out any solar input, because of the larger volumes...
    Cosmic if you have low hot water needs you should be OK, If you have teenage girls that love long showers, your not going to be saving much at all,,
    Try and keep your hot water usage to daylight hours mate...
     

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