Is there a Geophysicist in the house?: The world is getting bigger?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by kimbo.parker, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Heat is energy, energy is mass.
    The world is getting hotter = the world is getting bigger ???????????????????????


    I reason;
    the world is getting bigger by virtue of accretion of cosmic dust.
    the dust gets pulled in by gravity and it remains unless it is compelled to escape velocity (somehow).

    What we loose to space (some heat), is less than what we gain from heat and dust inbound.
    So I reason the world is getting bigger.


    If this is not the case, man I need the truth before I blot me copy book.
    regards,
    Kimbo
     
  2. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    we don't just lose heat to space

    we lose some of the atmosphere and with volcanoes and metorite strikes some dust too

    New Scientitst did a story on this about 5 years ago, not sure if their web site is searchable that far back - but might be worth a look. I think they decided we were possibly shrinking??? could be wrong - have been known to be wrong most of the time (ask the wife LOL)
     
  3. Teza Elise

    Teza Elise New Member

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    I think it is better to stick to simple things like god and other stories (Pinocchio for example) and leave space for the experts to explore. They are the first to say, they don't know, yet! The perceived universe is expanding, it is not expanding slowing down after an explosion, but it is accelerating outwards. The equations don't all add up, because there are too many things unaccountable for. But what happens out there takes a gazillion years, and what happens here is only e few tiny million years.

    The current state of the tiny little rock we are on indicates that at least for this destructive specie time is up. We had a chance and blew it. Permaculture is a fine tool for slowing down disaster while being morally at ease you were part of the solution not part of the problem.

    What we do know is that biodiversity has taken a nose dive, too many species committing suicide so they will not face the consequences. It is becoming more and more difficult to practice permaculture with all the native species gone, and an abundance of out of place species, which may be the only bet we have for biodiversity. I don't even care about planting food (for humans) as much as just planting as many different things and help them grow together. I walk and gather seeds, by jacket sometimes is full of them, they dry off by the time I take them out :)
    I walked through this rocky hill the other day, never built or utilized for agriculture or even walked that much by people. I looked and looked, there couldn't be more than 4-5 species of plants there. Very odd. No tall trees, shrubs, (very dry area but only 5-10km away from the Med.) and later on my walk back while looking towards where I did go I saw a hawk aiming its circles on some poor creature down below. Well, that made my day, 2 more species that were not planted but part of the ecosystem. Then it took a dive and had sapper.
     
  4. Brian D Smith

    Brian D Smith New Member

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    Point by point:
    - Energy is not mass - remember E = M x C^2 ? The conversion factor, C squared is HUGE. The amount of energy received from the sun, converted to mass is very. very small, a few grams per day. But the conversion never happens, because photons are energy and only add heat to mass.
    - The planet has a control system that balances received heat with transmitted heat. If this were not the case, this planet would look more like Venus or Mars. This control system is called "Life" and has been active for several hundred million years.
    - The planet IS getting heaver by in-falling matter. It is estimated that several tons of matter fall through the atmosphere every day. This is how the planet was originally formed.
    - The planet loses several tonnes of atmosphere every day, blown off by the solar wind. A wake of molecular hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and other elements trails behind the planet in its orbit. Some of this drifts around the solar system, some gets picked back up on the next orbit.
    - No scientist has yet measured the mass exchange balance between these two phenomena, but it is likely (given the history of Mars) that only Life is keeping the planet in balance.

    Summary: The planet is likely getting heavier but not so much as to be noticeable or measurable.
     
  5. Teza Elise

    Teza Elise New Member

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    Physics may be interesting to some but to most people has become too complicated to be of any use. The person above speaks much of the scientific truth, who cares if he is a physicist or a plumber. One important thing that does matter when it comes to language and science is that in science words have a much more specific definition than in the "real world". One such word is system. When you say the "world" what exactly do you mean? The earth? The planetary solar system alone is an insignificant bit of sand in the ocean of the galaxy and the seas of the "known" universe. I think we all know how we can go from m=E/c**2 and what havoc this creates when it transforms. To go from E to m is not easy, and I have no idea if it has been tried and or failed. I think some billions are spent in Switzerland shooting particles around and see what happens. The 50year old sci-fi trekky "beam us up Skotty" has not yet worked, even with dead matter.

    Back again with systems, what may be true for one system may not be true for another system. What Newtonian physics is for earth-trapped-beings is useless up in space and far from earth. It is like trying to measure the distance from Chile to New Zealand with a yard-stick. What does matter to us is that in most places of earth with a dry atmosphere and the sun at the highest spot either in the middle of summer or in the tropics we can measure close to 1kW/square meter. Let's say the average for the whole day is 100w/hr and in 24hr we have 2,4kWh. That is not much by our habits of consumption. This means that on a good dry sunny day you could run a pc from a solar panel 1sq.m (10sq feet 3'x3' let's say) but only if you could transform this energy 100%. The best of solar panels do not come close to even half of it. And the next day it is cloudy and rainy, no energy for you, not even enough to power your flash light. But we need the rain as much as the light.

    If you look at a medium oak tree with full foliage in the afternoon the majority of the leaves are turned to the sun. They are mini-panels and they can transform this energy in a much more efficient way than we can. Most trees turn even their trunks to follow light, that is why tropical hardwood is straighter than subtropical or further away. Because they turn to follow light and then it comes up from behind them the next morning. Guitarists and luthiers know this very well. Their tropical wood does not warp as much as they are slices of a turning trunk. They create mass, the mass of the tree increases, but much of it is water and nutrients that come from earth. It just transforms one dead matter to life-matter. If your system is the tree above soil alone then you may foolishly say it gained mass. Is it the solar energy entering the system or the matter from the soil? Is it both? It is life. You put the whole thing, soil and roots into a chamber or nylon bag to study it and it dies. No magic! Theory and reality have a gap. Try hydroponics or aquaponics without all the earth/soil processes and see how far you will get with your food producing experiment.

    We need to create as many bio-solar panels (trees) as we can to catch up for all the forest destruction humanity has conducted in the past 2-3 hundred years but worst of all the past 70. "It is the only hope we have really" as Geoff repeats, as a specie! We need to catch all this free energy and put it back into creating life rather than destroying it. And we happen to be the most deadly and destructive specie that has ever appeared on earth. We are vicious, we have opened this war against all other lives with any means we have available to us. Even washing our selves with petroleum byproducts. Kill kill kill. All day long, it is the only thing humans know how to do. Maybe we should try creating life for a change because all this killing doesn't work anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017 at 8:05 PM
  6. Brian D Smith

    Brian D Smith New Member

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    Teza, I was responding to Kimbo’s question – “is the world getting bigger because it is getting hotter?” I was thinking about his comment regarding received radiation from the sun and infalling space debris. “Bigger” meaning more mass.

    There is also the phenomenon that as something heats up, it expands in volume with the same mass. The oceans are expanding due to this effect. It is measurable but small.

    BTW – all people are innate physicists. Physics, like mathematics is just the formalization of something we all do every day. When you catch a baseball, ride a bike, cook a meal, saw a board or wring water out of a towel, you are using physics.

    Of course, some of us do it better than others. :)
     
  7. Teza Elise

    Teza Elise New Member

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    True, what we do is physics, what we put in words as physics is an approximation.
    I always liked the "fact" that on a bicycle or motorcycle from some speed up to turn one way you must turn the bars the opposite way first. Instinctively the best bikers do it as it is the only way to turn. Tell them about "the physics" of turning and they refuse they are doing such a thing. Forget 3/4+ wheeled vehicles, it only works for 2 wheeled vehicles. What all these people do is correct, putting it into words confuses everyone.
     
  8. Brian D Smith

    Brian D Smith New Member

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    Mathematics is the language of physics.

    Consider: before Sir Isaac Newton, everyone knew how to throw and catch a ball just like today. Newton wrapped mathematics around the thing and now we know how to fly through the air and into space.

    Understanding physics allows us to go beyond our simple physical capabilities, whether we are working with atoms or planets.
     

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